FRS/BRZ vs. 2013 Civic SI

[HunterGreene]

Originally Posted by Aki

Sorry I don't think you can be a serious auto enthusiast if you blow off a car simply because it's FWD. BRZ lost in a comparo with the Renault Megane Trophy, a FWD car. Plenty of FWD are very rewarding to drive.

I have an 06 Civic Si--granted it's modded a bit, but stock for stock, the K20 engine is a much more entertaining powerplant than the BRZ/FR-S. The problem with the FR-S engine isn't that it doesn't have enough power--it's just not a very fun engine to wring out. There's a deadzone of torque in the mid-range that makes revving a chore. Steering is a toss up in the 8thgen Si to the FR-S. Both are EPS, both aren't as communicative as I'd want. Chassis rigidity the FR-S is superior to the Si.

I would agree on your first point, FWD can be fun to drive.

On the engine comment, it would seem that you haven't driven either of the twins much. The infamous "dip" is noticeable, but it doesn't make the car undriveable or any less fun. I barely notice it unless I am looking for it, and even then, I can shift around it to get the engine in its powerband without too much effort.

[benster]

and since we're in a pissing match, the SI is way worse than the brz as far as gas mileage is. making more power is one thing, but if you get horrible gas mileage from it doesn't justify the little bump you get from the SI.

[SupraLove]

The 8th Gen Si was a masterfully built vehicle. The shifter was so smooth you would have thought it was connected via a straight linkage. The balance of the chassis was so good, you wouldn't believe that it had a 62/38 front weight bias. Understeer? Very minimal; just a little left in for safety purposes. A bit of body roll was there, but it was controlled and didn't interfere with cornering at all. Suspension was firm, controlled and confident. Torque steer? Nonexistent. If you stepped into the car and drove it without knowing the name or badge on the back, you would think it was a RWD sports sedan. The engine was incredibly fun to wind up, and it had that ridiculously high 8400RPM cutoff that sounded so good. The steering was pretty on-center and had decent feel (although not as good as, say the twins' or the Miata's steering feel), and the clutch engagement was positive and had good feedback.

Not a trace of the boring and bland 1.8 Civic was left in the vehicle, and it sold so well because it was a legitimate sports car. It felt just like the DC5 Teg, and in some ways even better.

The 9th gen is a whole different story. 8000RPM redline? Gone in favor of a 7000RPM redline. Chassis balance? Same as before but with more understeer, and you can definitely feel the K24's weight up front. The suspension is softer and road feel is gone completely. The transmission is still a great Honda unit, with solid clutch engagement and a great shifter, but without the soul of the engine, it's no fun to shift. Body roll is definitely more pronounced and does interfere with cornering. The engine is too quiet. The car has lost its soul. It's no longer a legitimate sports car, but instead is merely a regular Civic with a bigger engine and a manual transmission. A lot of the Civic's regular econobox traits are left over. Honda just didn't try.

Honda has lost its mojo. No more S2000, no really good Civic Si anymore, no more NSX (the new NSX concept is a total joke)... Unless it comes out with an FR-S/BRZ competitor soon, Honda is going down the river worse than Toyota did, which was fortunately saved by the FR-S.

I think Subaru and Mazda both embody what Toyota and Nissan and Honda used to be. Car companies that make normal cars that don't deserve to be as fun to drive as they end up being, although Subaru is starting to lose it with their use of CVTs across the board. Mazda is still at it though, and their vehicles are still the best of any Japanese manufacturer because of how much driving enjoyment they give you.

Honda, get your damn act together and release a real sports car.

[HunterGreene]

^It remains to be seen if the 86 brings back Toyota or not. I don't necessarily agree that the NSX is a joke. I am being patient and seeing how it actually turns out, not just panning it on paper before they even sell a unit.

The 2012 Civic has largely been panned by the automotive world as a complete failure of the company to improve on design and an exercise in cutting every single corner 2 or three times in an attempt to keep profit margins. It was so universally slammed to the point that I heard a few months ago that Honda was already working on the 10th gen redesign that is supposed to be premiered next month or early next year.

But as its been said, they have a big hill to climb, and with the Si being the only true "performance" vehicle currently in their lineup, they have a very long road to get up that hill. Returning to what made the 8th gen great and bringing back cars like the S2000 would be a step in the right direction.

[2forme]

Originally Posted by SupraLove

The 8th Gen Si was a masterfully built vehicle. The shifter was so smooth you would have thought it was connected via a straight linkage. The balance of the chassis was so good, you wouldn't believe that it had a 62/38 front weight bias. Understeer? Very minimal; just a little left in for safety purposes. A bit of body roll was there, but it was controlled and didn't interfere with cornering at all. Suspension was firm, controlled and confident. Torque steer? Nonexistent. If you stepped into the car and drove it without knowing the name or badge on the back, you would think it was a RWD sports sedan. The engine was incredibly fun to wind up, and it had that ridiculously high 8400RPM cutoff that sounded so good. The steering was pretty on-center and had decent feel (although not as good as, say the twins' or the Miata's steering feel), and the clutch engagement was positive and had good feedback.

Not a trace of the boring and bland 1.8 Civic was left in the vehicle, and it sold so well because it was a legitimate sports car. It felt just like the DC5 Teg, and in some ways even better.

The 9th gen is a whole different story. 8000RPM redline? Gone in favor of a 7000RPM redline. Chassis balance? Same as before but with more understeer, and you can definitely feel the K24's weight up front. The suspension is softer and road feel is gone completely. The transmission is still a great Honda unit, with solid clutch engagement and a great shifter, but without the soul of the engine, it's no fun to shift. Body roll is definitely more pronounced and does interfere with cornering. The engine is too quiet. The car has lost its soul. It's no longer a legitimate sports car, but instead is merely a regular Civic with a bigger engine and a manual transmission. A lot of the Civic's regular econobox traits are left over. Honda just didn't try.

Honda has lost its mojo. No more S2000, no really good Civic Si anymore, no more NSX (the new NSX concept is a total joke)... Unless it comes out with an FR-S/BRZ competitor soon, Honda is going down the river worse than Toyota did, which was fortunately saved by the FR-S.

I think Subaru and Mazda both embody what Toyota and Nissan and Honda used to be. Car companies that make normal cars that don't deserve to be as fun to drive as they end up being, although Subaru is starting to lose it with their use of CVTs across the board. Mazda is still at it though, and their vehicles are still the best of any Japanese manufacturer because of how much driving enjoyment they give you.

Honda, get your damn act together and release a real sports car.

I can tell you've never had an 8th gen LOL.

[Mr.Jay]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I can tell you've never had an 8th gen LOL.

I agree with this.

Also not sure what you were comparing the 8th gen too as the DC5 is a RSX and the Teggy is DC2. If comparing to the DC2 itr hell no does the 8th gen feel better. Compared to the DC5 I would also disagree.

New nsx has moved up market like the GTR and what I assume the Supra will be like.

[SupraLove]

Originally Posted by 2forme

I can tell you've never had an 8th gen LOL.

Perhaps not, although my friend uses the 8th gen as his DD and I've driven it a few times, and trust me, the 9th is an inferior vehicle in all aspects except engine torque.

[JDMenrique]

Originally Posted by SupraLove

sold so well because it was a legitimate sports car. It felt just like the DC5 Teg, and in some ways even better.

No, a well built Sporty Coupe at best, and I owned one.

Originally Posted by SupraLove

Honda just didn't try.

I agree 100%

[2forme]

Originally Posted by SupraLove

Perhaps not, although my friend uses the 8th gen as his DD and I've driven it a few times, and trust me, the 9th is an inferior vehicle in all aspects except engine torque.

Oh, I'm not arguing that point. I am saying that you over glorified it by about two or three fold It's a confused car. It wants to be a sports car, but settles on being an angry econobox. LOL

[SupraLove]

Originally Posted by 2forme

Oh, I'm not arguing that point. I am saying that you over glorified it by about two or three fold It's a confused car. It wants to be a sports car, but settles on being an angry econobox. LOL

+1

[Wolfking]

Originally Posted by BioRage

New SI looks like shit.

The '09 I traded out of, looked better and had more umph to it. Apparently Honda is unimpressed by the current model SI's as well, due to the fact there's not a factory bodykit, (sedan) at least not on the Honda website.

Now that I'm in an FRS, I miss my steering wheel mounted cruise and stereo controls along with my moon roof. Driving a fr car again almost makes up for it.

[JDMenrique]

Originally Posted by Wolfking

Now that I'm in an FRS, I miss my steering wheel mounted cruise and stereo controls along with my moon roof. Driving a fr car again almost makes up for it.

same here, im still using my thumbs looking for the cruise!

[nonicname]

FWD sucks
RWD rocks
end of discussion.

[OTB]

There is actually a whole lot of valuable information discussed above, and I must commend all of you on a civic si vs. anything thread that was mostly based on experience and spec. I have driven the 8th gen si and driven the bloody hell out of a FR-S.

At heart I'm a mid engine lightweight fan when it comes to sports cars. I have also been racing an elise or mr2 spyder for a handful of years. When it comes to a street car, civic si vs frs is a tough choice. A good used si can be had for 13.5k, and is a very high quality automobile. Fun enough to drive, especially because you can't really have that much fun on most American highways any more. The 86, however is a platform that I can really make sweet love to. I just wish you could get one without all the traction control and tpms, etc bullsh. The requirements the automakers must meet for USA makes me sick to my stomach. Civic si or 86, both of them should weigh in at 2400 lbs if you delete all the crap you never needed. Still not sure which one I'd want more for a street car.

cheers!