New Hawk HP+ Compound

[CounterSpace Garage]

Originally Posted by Pat

Sure some can pair alright with stock tires, but certainly non-track pads would be a better match, don't you think?
To answer your question more directly, I would think it is difficult for many drivers to modulate many true track pads as well as a typical high-performance street pad with the limited grip levels stock tires provide.

Different brake pad manufacturers have different manufacturing capacities. The more sophisticated the tooling is, the more consistent the pad compounds become. Likewise, a very good race/track compound will allow for excellent control between a 800TW commuter tire and a 40TW racing slick. The key is how consistent the pads are under various pressures.

Originally Posted by jsimon7777

Everything CSG is saying is true. Race pads are totally fine on stock tires, good enough that I've had an instructor comment that I braked harder than most people while I was running stock tires. ABS kicked in rarely, and it was noticeable when it did. I have no claim to goodness when driving, far from it, so it's not some "wow I'm so good" thing. More like a "if I can do it, anybody can" thing. Run a real race pad at the track, and Hawk offers ones that are perfectly fine. I'm sure CSG will want to sell you pads they think are better.

There are many track enthusiasts around but few have actually tested a sweep of compounds of popular brake manufacturers. Yes, a race compound from Company A will not be ideal when comparing to a race compound from Company B. A race compound from Company C, who is the de facto company to contact for motorsport related activities, will actually have a race compound that can even work on low grip tires. Hawk has a contingency program in NASA/SCCA. Understandably, many stand by the brand because of lesser experience with other companies. In this case, many of sticking to what they know and what they are comfortable with. The world of brakes is vast and difficult to comprehend - Hawk is large in its own microcosm.

Originally Posted by Pat

FWIW, the last couple years most of the time I have spent on-track has been with Maxxis RC-1s and DTC-60s. When I changed tires to GT Radial SX-2s, I found the pads were a bit much for the tires. It's really not a big deal, but enough that I have considered trying out DTC-30s with the new tires. Another 86CUP participant, and a long-time NASA group leader and instructor, feels more strongly about it than I do.
It's really not a big deal either way, but some pads will be easier to modulate with stock tires than others. Certainly some of it comes down to driver preference, as well.

While sweeping through the Hawk lineup, the compound type will need to be of a lower category to gain the needs you may be looking for - pressure is not correlated consistently with friction coefficient, which is a function of the type of manufacturing process used to create the brake pads. If you were to try an actual motorsports compound that is used in professional racing, the pedal consistency is so reliable that you can "feel" and "know" exactly how much braking pressure is required to maintain consistent braking performance even on low grip tires without overheating the brake system. We've also proven that these motorsport compounds can take on slicks and low grip tires without issue. On the test mule's Road Atlanta run, we achieved 2.2G of braking on 220TW tires on factory calipers and discs at the end of the back straight with no brake ducting (none of our cars use brake ducting). We can thank FD for laying down a fresh layer of rubber to allow for this to happen, but any other standard off the shelf brake compound would have failed under that immense energy.

Originally Posted by RayRay88

Looking at the Project Mu HC800's and GFour fluid for now, they seem to be very decently priced compared to the HP+, I think that might be a good starting point. I'll know more about what I want and the capabilities of me and the car after my track day.
Thank you everyone for your responses.

Currently Project Mu HC+800 is discontinued, unless some entity had trouble selling their stash of inventory. If you're looking for a reasonable pad and fluid setup for stock tires, let us know and we can work out deets via PM. The budget sensitivity will be kept in mind for your application.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Pat

Sure some can pair alright with stock tires, but certainly non-track pads would be a better match, don't you think?
To answer your question more directly, I would think it is difficult for many drivers to modulate many true track pads as well as a typical high-performance street pad with the limited grip levels stock tires provide.

The average high friction high torque track pad would be a bad match to the stock tires, yes. I 100% agree that the pad needs to be matched to the specific setup, including tire, but I do disagree with a blanket statement of all track tires badly match low grip street tires.

Originally Posted by Pat

FWIW, the last couple years most of the time I have spent on-track has been with Maxxis RC-1s and DTC-60s. When I changed tires to GT Radial SX-2s, I found the pads were a bit much for the tires. It's really not a big deal, but enough that I have considered trying out DTC-30s with the new tires. Another 86CUP participant, and a long-time NASA group leader and instructor, feels more strongly about it than I do.
It's really not a big deal either way, but some pads will be easier to modulate with stock tires than others. Certainly some of it comes down to driver preference, as well.

You're absolutely correct; some pads are easier to modulate than others, with lower grip tires. The modulation range has to match the grip threshold of the tires in question, while accounting for the rest of the setup.

That said, the DTC you're using have a very high initial ramp; I'd have modulation and more importantly, release issues with them on stock and SX2 as well! I get that Hawks are super popular due to their low price via contingency, but there are many, many superior options out there. The Hawks bear little merit beyond being the low price leader.

When I come out to RM, I'll bring some pads with me that we can throw on a car for the weekend, so you can experience the difference yourself with zero financial commitment!

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by Pat

FWIW, the last couple years most of the time I have spent on-track has been with Maxxis RC-1s and DTC-60s.

Would love to hear your thoughts on the DTC-60's ?


I'm interested in trying out a more aggressive pad than the HP+ on track.

[Pat]

Honestly, I love it. I have no complaints. That said, I haven't tried many of the higher-priced alternatives, so there may be something I'm missing. Many of us around here run them and I don't really hear any complaints about it. It is considered a go-to pad for many NASA guys in this region. Keep in mind many NASA guys here get them for free or at a huge discount, so that is also a factor. But like I said, I have used them for years and have zero complaints.
DTC-60s would certainly be a nice step up from the HP+, which in my opinion have no right being driven hard on a road course. I think they often work well for autocross, though. What tires would you use with them?

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by Pat

DTC-60s would certainly be a nice step up from the HP+, which in my opinion have no right being driven hard on a road course. I think they often work well for autocross, though. What tires would you use with them?

Are you maybe thinking of the old HP+ compound? The new compound is essentially the old "street/race" compound.


I have Hankook RS4's for track days and Nankang AR-1's for competition.

[Pat]

Originally Posted by Turbo

Are you maybe thinking of the old HP+ compound? The new compound is essentially the old "street/race" compound.





I have Hankook RS4's for track days and Nankang AR-1's for competition.

Yes I am thinking of the old compound. Thank you.

[Lynxis]

How is daily driving noise on the new HP+ compound? Also, is fade resistance better than the originals? Any comments on durability?

[CrowsFeast]

I'm new to these boards and as such have no reputation behind my statements but if you're only doing a couple of track days a year rather than outright competition then slap some HP+ pads on and go have fun!

Back when I started doing lapping I had a 2003 Golf (same weight, less power and grip than an FT86) and ran HPS pads. With good fluid I never had an issue. When I moved to my E46 BMW I went with the same pads. It was only when I got into time attack and started competing for the lead in my class that I started to overwhelm the HPS's; even in a car 500 lbs heavier than the FT86, with more power (especially more torque).

Just before switching cars I switched to DTC-60's with the plans to daily drive on those pads all track season and go back to HPS's for the winter (too lazy to switch every track day and had been told by several people that they had no issues dailying on them). Well the daily portion never came about but I did run them for 1 day on the track and the initial bite was a phenomenal difference to the HPS's. My braking points moved 10-15ft later but I didn't feel like I had the same ability to modulate the brakes.

There's most of my experience with brake pads.

[Lynxis]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

How is daily driving noise on the new HP+ compound? Also, is fade resistance better than the originals? Any comments on durability?

Originally Posted by CrowsFeast

I'm new to these boards and as such have no reputation behind my statements but if you're only doing a couple of track days a year rather than outright competition then slap some HP+ pads on and go have fun!

Back when I started doing lapping I had a 2003 Golf (same weight, less power and grip than an FT86) and ran HPS pads. With good fluid I never had an issue. When I moved to my E46 BMW I went with the same pads. It was only when I got into time attack and started competing for the lead in my class that I started to overwhelm the HPS's; even in a car 500 lbs heavier than the FT86, with more power (especially more torque).

Just before switching cars I switched to DTC-60's with the plans to daily drive on those pads all track season and go back to HPS's for the winter (too lazy to switch every track day and had been told by several people that they had no issues dailying on them). Well the daily portion never came about but I did run them for 1 day on the track and the initial bite was a phenomenal difference to the HPS's. My braking points moved 10-15ft later but I didn't feel like I had the same ability to modulate the brakes.

There's most of my experience with brake pads.

The reason I ask is because I'm looking for a dual duty pad for next year. I'll be due for new street pads and rotors by then, and won't have the finances to buy a dedicated set of pads if I want to get any track time in.

I ran HP+ about 4 years ago (It was my first year performance driving) and the problems weren't acceptable to me. The good parts were the bite and durability. After 4 track days, 10 autocross events and around 5000kms of daily driving, they still had around 70% pad material remaining. That said, the bad parts were show stoppers. In particular, they were way too noisy for street driving. They would be quiet for 2-3 days following a bedding cycle but then go back to sounding like a bus again. The fade resistance wasn't really up to scratch either, I was noticing a bit of pad fade at the end of 20 minute sessions at the end of my first season.

For comparison, I've used EBC Yellowstuff before and they have good street manners and fade resistance but they lack bite and I've gone through a set in a single season. I'm considering trying the Bluestuff NDX which I understand have better bite and wear (friend of mine has them on his RX8 and he likes them for dual-duty) but I'm open to considering other products that may also fit my needs.

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

How is daily driving noise on the new HP+ compound? Also, is fade resistance better than the originals? Any comments on durability?

I've driven the new HP+ compound at race pace for 20-25 minute sessions at TMP Cayuga -a very heavy braking circuit- with ZERO brake fade. No ducting at all, but I AM running 6 piston calipers and largish 2 piece rotors up front which no doubt makes a huge difference. At Grand Bend Motorplex, after the back straight I was braking JUST before the last cone. And I'm boosted, too so I'm carrying some real speed there.

As for noise -well- I don't daily this thing very much so I don't know if it they would get better with more miles, but yeah they frequently squeal like race brakes. I actually kinda like that since I know what it is


I've also now driven the old HP+ compound on the same setup, on track. It was dead silent on street, but definitely a drop off in braking performance. Significantly less initial bite, less overall braking ability and not as good "feel" or release. The new compound is a huge step forward on track - the fact it's 100% streetable is a massive bonus.


Now - the biggest plus of the new HP+ compound? I pulled the first set off after I inspected them and found the driver side front pads were down to 2mm material. What did I find? Zero wear on the rotors. I don't mean minimal - I mean ZERO. Not even the slightest ridge you could feel with your fingernail. That's a huge cost savings if you're running larger rotors than stock.


Also interesting was that -even though they ended up at 2mm- I still had no noticeable fade last time I was on track back in October in 5 degree C weather. No doubt that temp played a factor, but still.....

[Turbo]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

I'll be due for new street pads and rotors by then, and won't have the finances to buy a dedicated set of pads if I want to get any track time in.

I missed some of what you wrote first time through - just caught the noise thing.

Here's an idea - get some cheapie aftermarket pads for the street from a decent aftermarket company like Wagner - probably $100 total. And HP+ front and rear for the track.

In fact - you could even try running HP+ in the rear always and just change the fronts to cheapies for the street. Rears don't do much braking anyways, so maybe they won't squeal much either?


Just a thought......

[churchx]

Well, actually exactly because rears don't do much for braking, there is higher chance for them to squeal imho (my thought of line goes - less braking, lower temps, even more chance for bedded layer to be worn from rotors during daily driving light-braking, and not bedded back due said too light braking and too low temps. Though then again rears are also smaller and brake bias should even then out. But then again from real life observed wear rear pads usually last 2-3x times as long as front pads, so even with that bias they probably still brake/heat less. And then there is bit that it's non optimal to use staggered pad setup to not change brake bias for brakes to perform right. Summarizing that all .. i'd probably still change both front & rear pads pre/post trackday).