follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > FT86CLUB Shared Forum > FR-S / BRZ vs....

FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-14-2011, 05:39 PM   #43
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: '06 AM V8V Coupe
Location: United States of America
Posts: 5,279
Thanks: 285
Thanked 1,074 Times in 759 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
To be fair, Japan went into the business much earlier when there were more improvements to be made. Nowadays engines are pretty advanced and well optimized (Toyota in particular has been doing quite a good job here with introducing direct injection and advanced valve timing, which Honda has not been keeping up with for some reason), so it's harder to bring "revolutionary" stuff in. Of course Japan has brought the world an unparalleled level of quality and reliability in automobiles which we can all appreciate, but I'm pointing out that variable valve timing, for example, is simple in concept, it just takes time and money to bring to the market, and arrived when these newer car companies were in their infancy.

I think Hyundai deserves credit for achieving what they have, they've managed to build cars of very good value even if they are less refined than the competition. They are putting a lot into research and are listening to consumers, which is good.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 05:45 PM   #44
fatoni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: miata, mazdaspeed protege, ls430
Location: socal
Posts: 4,416
Thanks: 599
Thanked 1,442 Times in 787 Posts
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToyotaObsession View Post
Lean Manufacturing. All Toyota's idea.

What did Japan copy from the Europeans? I'm curious now.
what about lean is unique to toyotas streamlining? im involved in lean projects in the hospital i work at and there is nothing shockingly new. lets not forget the increase in recalls post lean project. relation? not sure but it raises eyebrows.

look at any japanese car from the 50s 60s 70s and you can see where they come from. hell even the miata is just a elan clone. honda 600 has mini cues. 510s from 2002s. 2000gt is a quintessential french riviera sports car. celicas looked like they came straight out of detroit.

nobody intentionally carves their own path. you copy your predecessors until you fail and then if you get enough right to have some staying power the next generation follows suit. im just saying that korea might be to japan what japan was to the previous dominant car manufacturers. i think its too early to tell so lets not count them out
fatoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 06:20 PM   #45
RRnold
2 wheel member
 
RRnold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Drives: JZA80, 997.1, Taco
Location: SoCal->NorCal
Posts: 4,330
Thanks: 1,318
Thanked 938 Times in 480 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
To be fair, Japan went into the business much earlier when there were more improvements to be made. Nowadays engines are pretty advanced and well optimized (Toyota in particular has been doing quite a good job here with introducing direct injection and advanced valve timing, which Honda has not been keeping up with for some reason), so it's harder to bring "revolutionary" stuff in. Of course Japan has brought the world an unparalleled level of quality and reliability in automobiles which we can all appreciate, but I'm pointing out that variable valve timing, for example, is simple in concept, it just takes time and money to bring to the market, and arrived when these newer car companies were in their infancy.

I think Hyundai deserves credit for achieving what they have, they've managed to build cars of very good value even if they are less refined than the competition. They are putting a lot into research and are listening to consumers, which is good.
That is true! There is an economic shift and now we have Korean and China developing cars. There really isn't too much secrecy when it comes to technology these days. You know the tides are turning when China can build their own stealth fighter.

With that being said, I'm still not completely sold on Korean nor Chinese branded automobiles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni View Post
look at any japanese car from the 50s 60s 70s and you can see where they come from. hell even the miata is just a elan clone. honda 600 has mini cues. 510s from 2002s. 2000gt is a quintessential french riviera sports car. celicas looked like they came straight out of detroit.

nobody intentionally carves their own path. you copy your predecessors until you fail and then if you get enough right to have some staying power the next generation follows suit. im just saying that korea might be to japan what japan was to the previous dominant car manufacturers. i think its too early to tell so lets not count them out
The first thing I thought of was the Dome Zero and how it looked exactly like the Countach!

As I mentioned before, they are still too young of a car company for me to consider buying.

Japan gained a lot of respect due to their competitiveness to not only race but to dominate it! Hyundai needs to enter in a 24hr Le Mans, build a F1 car, Nascar...something. Build a name for yourself instead of building a car that can look like a poorman's S Class and calling it a Genesis!
__________________
RRnold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 07:10 PM   #46
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: '06 AM V8V Coupe
Location: United States of America
Posts: 5,279
Thanks: 285
Thanked 1,074 Times in 759 Posts
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
lolz first time I ever saw a Genesis was on the way home, I saw it parked in the parking lot of a restaurant. I thought it was awfully strange how a Mercedes S class was missing its logo...then later I found out that it wasn't a Mercedes. It's a complete ripoff but hey it looks nice Hopefully they'll be a little more creative next time...and get rid of that ugly front grill on the coupe.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 07:12 PM   #47
Want.FR-S
Senior Member
 
Want.FR-S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Drives: 4 Wheels Auto
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,191
Thanks: 251
Thanked 274 Times in 187 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar View Post
It is likely used to reduce oversteer. Even the base model 2.0L turbo Gencoupe has staggered tires. Probably maybe sorta kinda for looks too .
Would it make sense to reduce oversteer you would beef up the *rear* tire, and hence the regular staggered tires. However, in that picture, the rear tire seems smaller (the rim looks smaller) and this is where it gets me puzzled. I am wondering if there is any special to this kind of setup.
Want.FR-S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 07:36 PM   #48
Allch Chcar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Drives: N/A
Location: N/A
Posts: 3,380
Thanks: 2,205
Thanked 646 Times in 419 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Want.FR-S View Post
Would it make sense to reduce oversteer you would beef up the *rear* tire, and hence the regular staggered tires. However, in that picture, the rear tire seems smaller (the rim looks smaller) and this is where it gets me puzzled. I am wondering if there is any special to this kind of setup.
They did.

The rear wheel is smaller but they use a wider tire in the back.
__________________
-Allch Chcar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonitti View Post
Daily Driver, occasional weekend drifter.
Allch Chcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 08:42 PM   #49
Matador
hashiryu
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Drives: Mk4 Supra
Location: Probably mucking around in an engine bay
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 18
Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimman View Post
Hmmm... Honda popularized (didn't invent, but showed the world a successful application) 4 valve per cylinder heads in the 1960s with their bikes. They also pioneered cam-profile switching in cars.

What have the Koreans pioneered, ever?

I understand that even with their new found reliability, part of if came from buying Toyota designed parts from some suppliers. I recall Toyota throwing the toys out of the pram with some of their suppliers because of this, and rightfully so.
Matador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 03:56 AM   #50
ToyotaObsession
Senior Member
 
ToyotaObsession's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: 2008 XRunner
Location: Everett, Washington
Posts: 224
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni View Post
what about lean is unique to toyotas streamlining? im involved in lean projects in the hospital i work at and there is nothing shockingly new. lets not forget the increase in recalls post lean project. relation? not sure but it raises eyebrows.

look at any japanese car from the 50s 60s 70s and you can see where they come from. hell even the miata is just a elan clone. honda 600 has mini cues. 510s from 2002s. 2000gt is a quintessential french riviera sports car. celicas looked like they came straight out of detroit.

nobody intentionally carves their own path. you copy your predecessors until you fail and then if you get enough right to have some staying power the next generation follows suit. im just saying that korea might be to japan what japan was to the previous dominant car manufacturers. i think its too early to tell so lets not count them out
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing

Toyota really started to run with Lean after WWII during Reconstruction. It was actually taught to them by an American. It's nothing new, but it's how they go about it, constantly trying to drive out waste. You have to remember Toyota has been doing it a long time and have made their manufacturing process very efficient. When you intitally implement Lean you don't see many improvements but over time you'll see marked improvements. It can be applied to anything, but the way you go about it in a Hospital is different than building Cars.

The recalls have literally nothing to do with Lean. It had to do with Toyota's climb to be #1 in the world. Their quality slipped because they weren't keeping an Eye on their suppliers like they should have.

Dude... you can find cues from any car and relate them to almost any other car. OEM's are always chasing the next big thing and sometimes that means copying each other. You'll find that the American Big 3 have been stealing the Asian style for the last 10 years. European OEM's have been straddling their own style with the Asian style too.

As for "nobody intentionally carves their own path." that is complete and utter bullshit. All great leaders carve their own path. What about the people who invent new things? Who are they following and failing? Microsoft? Google? Apple? Sir Isac Newton? Eisenstein? I mean the list goes on and on. These aren't people who just copied what other did and failed and tried again. They innovated and became leaders. They found new ways and invented new things all together.

You gotta remember there's some companies that have dominated their respected markets for hundreds years. They don't roll over every few years. Sure the Korean Auto Manufacturers might take over, but I don't see it happening. The Japanese know what a threat the Koreans are. They aren't going to make the mistake the Big 3 did in discounting the threat of the Japanese. They also didn't keep up with the times. The Japanese have been innovators and done a pretty good job of predicting where markets are headed. Sure they make mistakes, but you look at the number of Bombs the big 3 have dropped compared to Toyota and Acura.
__________________
“From the beginning, the concept was to put the driver back in the driver’s seat, and to eliminate computers as much as possible today. Powerful sports cars use a lot of computer technology so that anyone can drive and handle them. We decided not to go down that road.” - Tetsuya Tada
ToyotaObsession is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 06:45 AM   #51
SUB-FT86
86 Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
People act as if Toyota and Hondas are so special. When I was younger I fell for the same BS that many of you fell for yet when I look at a toyota lot all I see is sleepmobiles and nothing special. I would take the GC over 95% of ugly ass Japanese cars made now and I used to be a hyundai hater prior to the GC.
SUB-FT86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 11:15 AM   #52
Zaku
-Proud of Brzerhood-
 
Zaku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: '17 BRZ CWP LMT.
Location: Maryland
Posts: 4,153
Thanks: 2,717
Thanked 1,725 Times in 790 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Hmm I would give Hyundai a second chance, I love the GC I've only had the chance to drive a 2.0t one and I think their Mirableu is beautiful. But that UGLY ASS CLOTH Interior is so UGLY I was just gonna walk out after seeing the inside. I hope the face lift fix that plastic grill that looks like something from recycled old samsung tv it's real low quality. In fact improve on the interior please, and if it's competitive with both 370z and FRS I'll consider it big time because I'm a huge supporter of up and coming companies.
__________________

"The BRZ Section's fine wine" -Zgrinch
Zaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 12:52 PM   #53
SUB-FT86
86 Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaku View Post
Hmm I would give Hyundai a second chance, I love the GC I've only had the chance to drive a 2.0t one and I think their Mirableu is beautiful. But that UGLY ASS CLOTH Interior is so UGLY I was just gonna walk out after seeing the inside. I hope the face lift fix that plastic grill that looks like something from recycled old samsung tv it's real low quality. In fact improve on the interior please, and if it's competitive with both 370z and FRS I'll consider it big time because I'm a huge supporter of up and coming companies.
I highly doubt the Hyundai Genesis Coupe needs to worry about a N/A 2.0 liter,180-200hp, 2700-2800 lb, RWD coupe. I would say the Civic Si/Scion TC/Miata needs to worry about the FR-S. A 274hp 2.0 turbo is coming and a 340 hp V6 also. I expect 0-60 in the high-low 6's for the FR-S, I expect 0-60 in the high 5's for the 2.0t turbo GC and 0-60 in the high 4's for the 340 hp V6.
SUB-FT86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 01:58 PM   #54
RRnold
2 wheel member
 
RRnold's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Drives: JZA80, 997.1, Taco
Location: SoCal->NorCal
Posts: 4,330
Thanks: 1,318
Thanked 938 Times in 480 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SUB-FT86 View Post
People act as if Toyota and Hondas are so special. When I was younger I fell for the same BS that many of you fell for yet when I look at a toyota lot all I see is sleepmobiles and nothing special. I would take the GC over 95% of ugly ass Japanese cars made now and I used to be a hyundai hater prior to the GC.
You own a RSX so something about that car must have sparked your interest or else you wouldn't have bought or driven it.

I'm curious by what you mean by same BS... do explain!
__________________
RRnold is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 01:59 PM   #55
Matador
hashiryu
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Drives: Mk4 Supra
Location: Probably mucking around in an engine bay
Posts: 2,567
Thanks: 18
Thanked 37 Times in 20 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
333hp V6. And I highly doubt Hyundai would give the 2.0T 274hp (though it might not be hard to prod it out of the motor with a few cheap mods) simply because there would be no real reason to buy the more expensive V6.
Matador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2011, 05:36 PM   #56
SUB-FT86
86 Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
RRnold, I love most of the aspects of my rsx but I hate the k20 engine with a passion. Sure its a reliable engine but its a torqueless POS. Also the brakes and tranny is the worst. I drove civics and walked away unimpressed.
SUB-FT86 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
FT-86 / FR-S size dimensions compared to Genesis, Civic, Sction tC, etc JDMinc FR-S / BRZ vs.... 559 05-15-2014 07:50 PM
FR-S/Subie Coupe fantasy Maxim Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 23 06-10-2011 01:25 PM
new Kia coupe Ground N Pound Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 22 12-29-2009 02:04 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.