Track/Racing Discussion

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

For a DE in anything besides advanced and instructor run groups there will be strict passing rules. The car being passed will give a point by, the passing car can NOT pass until that is received.

DE's are safe generally from car to car contact. I've seen it a couple of times resulting from people not giving others space and the leading car screwing up, spinning, etc, but that's over a 12 year period.. I've seen far more single car incidents.

DE's are generally very safe, but if you are worried and it's offered for the event you want to run, buy HPDE insurance. If the car's wrecked, you get up to the written value of the policy to repair/replace with zero impact on your personal vehicle insurance.

For a novice you'll have an instructor in the car anyways to help you out with learning how to drive on track, it's VERY rare to see newer guys wreck (if so it's often vehicle prep, crap brake fluid, oem pads, etc), it's the guys with lots of experience that are pushing 10/10ths all the time that usually do...

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Totally agreed. Just because you see multiple cars on the track at once and passing does not mean it's "wheel to wheel" racing. In fact it's not racing at all, as there is no official timing. Because of this last point sometimes your regular insurance policy covers you. I've called up my insurance company (Travelers) and explained to them what I was doing. I stressed the point that this was not racing and there was no timing and no winners/losers. They said I was covered under my regular insurance policy. And that's fine by me, as I'm more likely to be involved in an accident out on public roads. As a matter of fact last weekend when I was driving home after a track event I was almost run off the interstate by some dumb women that started moving into my lane without a turn signal (when I was next to her). I saw it coming though, so my horn put her back in line.

On the other hand AutoXing is not covered by insurance policies as you are "racing". Autoxing might not involve the high speeds of conventional tracks but the movements you require of your car are definitely more violent than what you would encounter at your typical road course.

Originally Posted by oneday

That's a tough call between the E36 and the Miata...The Miata is a great car to learn how to drive in. It is fast enough that you can get yourself in trouble, but slow enough for you to fix a mistake pretty easily. The Miata is also super cheap to repair and maintain. If you have a decent amount of track experience then the E36 is a nice step up from the Miata. More powerful, similar handling prowess, but more expensive in every way.

It might also come down to whether you like open-air tracking or prefer the added protection of a coupe.



Get. It. In. Writing. Seriously...have a specific rider added to your policy outlining that the coverage extends to track use. Any incident that occurs on a track will get major scrutiny from adjusters and result in having a he-said, she-said argument about compensation.

From this thread.

Please continue.

[bofa]

Yeah what are you guys paying for HPDE coverage these days?

[oneday]

I'm not sure of costs...I've never used it.
Sources:
On Track Insurance
HPDE Insurance

[Dave-ROR]

Depends on your written value of the policy. Like collector car insurance your premium depends on that value. Also, if you do enough events you can usually get a yearly policy just like regular insurance and it brings the cost per event down quite a bit, although I think the break even point is 8-10 events a year before it makes sense for that.. great if you are instructor that gets cheap track time though.

Also, events have to qualify for HPDE insurance. Most normal groups have gone through the process and therefore are easy to get insurance for. I've gone through the process to be able to add our event (Integra Type-R Expo) to an insurer (Lockton) before in case any participants were interested. From what I recall it was pretty standard, but they will not, or won't like to, insure events without instructors, classroom time for Novices, etc. I think our safety requirements and standards are one of the most extreme though so we didn't have an issue.. there are more than a few that find out safety requirements to be extreme anyways, personally I find them to be common sense.. but.. :shrug:

Anyways, this is a good thread, let's get some future FT86 owners out on track

[oneday]

It should go without saying, but needs to be repeated often: Never take a car to the track that you aren't willing to send off a cliff.

Insurance or no, if your car is your "baby" that you cherish more than you really should, keep to hard parking activities. If you are smart enough to realize there are ways of easily replacing part or all of the car then bring it to the track and enjoy!

Also worth noting: Most incidents I've seen that resulted in damage were in the groups just above the novice group...where students were either just signed off to be solo or were solo'd an event or two before. These drivers think they are better than they are and run out of talent far more quickly than they can comprehend. Of the 12 wrecked cars I've seen at HPDEs eight of them were in this category. The rest were instructors or one notch down, and were really pushing the limits.

I am personally rarely at 10/10ths at an HPDE. Usually because I am testing one of our race cars and don't want to wad it up during practice. I will sometimes do two or three TT style laps in the second or third sessions of the day, but that's about it. It's not worth having to flog to repair or get a replacement especially if there is race in the near future. That said, I'll be at Shenandoah in October (1-2) and we don't have another race until April 2012, so I will be more apt to take bigger risks knowing I have all winter to fix/straighten/replace.

[Dave-ROR]

I'm *never* 10/10ths at HPDEs and never suggest anyone to drive 10/10ths. There's really nothing to gain and a lot to lose driving that hard.

I do agree with oneday, but the same really goes for driving the car hard anywhere. I've had far more close calls on the street than I have racing and doing HPDEs combined. Insurance in all but racing helps replace the vehicle but if you are really attached to the object...

oneday: You guys aren't doing Sebring? We are working on getting our car back together now but we plan on being there 14 hours @ sebring will be a blast.

[oneday]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

oneday: You guys aren't doing Sebring? We are working on getting our car back together now but we plan on being there 14 hours @ sebring will be a blast.

Nope. Too far for us to tow..we are in Philly after all. We already did nine races (three cars x three events) and another about 20 track days (combining all three cars, again) . The disappointing race at VIR left some of the newer members on our team a little deflated. So we are taking the winter off to reorganize and regroup.

The Schumacher Taxi guys are taking the CoROLLa to the Chumpionship in September...they won Sebring last year and were P2 or 3 at Charlotte.

[RRnold]

Is Lockton the common 3rd party for HPDE insurance? I have Wawanesa and I tried googling to see if they offered and didn't get a concrete answer. I also found a thread on Lotustalk about Allstate not offering it as well.

[Dave-ROR]

Lockton isn't the only one, but they are the one I've used to get coverage for events.. I haven't actually ever bought HPDE insurance, my cars are cheap enough to fix :P

[ultra]

You guys in the US are lucky to even have the possibility of HPDE insurance.

The rule of thumb out here is that if you wad it up, it's all on you. I've seen multiple GT3s and an Aston Marin Vantage written off that way. O.o

Doesn't stop me from taking part in events at all. My modus operandi is to take it easy the fist couple of sessions to gauge the track and the skills of the group I'm running with, then push harder in the last session once the herd has thinned a bit and the track's clean.

Even so, I never treat HPDEs like all out racing. Competitive wheel to wheel racing is a whole different type of driving IMO (defensive vs. offensive lines, different braking tactics, car management, strategy). I save the aggressive stuff for go-karts, which is all my budget allows. I love HPDEs for the simple joys of pushing the envelope of the car, trying to stay smooth, reel in faster cars etc.

I'm mainly hoping that the 86/BRZ doesn't have really crappy brakes or some other Achilles heel.