EcuTek vs BRZ-Edit

[regal]

Tell me if this is incorrect (it was forwarded to me):

EcuTek encrypts the ECU and voids the warranty even if it is only used to load the latest OEM tunes as their protocol leaves encryption traceable by software forensics.

BRZ-Edit on the other hand uses the same protocol to flash as the dealer, you can keep you ECU up to date and avoid the 2 hr drive to the dealer or whatever hassle the dealer may give without worry of a denied warranty claim?

I just don't "get" why so many would risk warranty on a $25k-$30k car when it would be much safer to use a BRZ-edit tuner.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by regal

Tell me if this is incorrect (it was forwarded to me):

EcuTek encrypts the ECU and voids the warranty even if it is only used to load the latest OEM tunes as their protocol leaves encryption traceable by software forensics.

BRZ-Edit on the other hand uses the same protocol to flash as the dealer, you can keep you ECU up to date and avoid the 2 hr drive to the dealer or whatever hassle the dealer may give without worry of a denied warranty claim?

I just don't "get" why so many would risk warranty on a $25k-$30k car when it would be much safer to use a BRZ-edit tuner.

BRZEdit is no more or less detectable than ECUTek.

[jamesm]

the guys that tune with ecutek have a vested interest in pushing people away from open source (or, really, anything that isn't ecutek, brzedit included) tuning. they benefit directly from the high barrier to entry imposed by ecutek. it limits competition. it's the same reason that big industries lobby to be regulated by the gov't. big companies can afford to comply with regulations that small upstarts cannot. they have to resort to scare tactics and misinformation, because to compete directly would be impossible. it's hard to convince someone to pay for a 'license' that does nothing more than impose restrictions upon them unless you have some argument to offer. no one will pay for ecutek when another competent tuner can do the same job for $300 less off the top just by virtue of not requiring the user to buy a 'license' to use the product of the work they just paid someone to perform. it's not a hard sell for the alternative.

ecutek can run their business anyway they want. this market will be no different than the others. they'll get the early rush then get pushed out by cheaper, more reasonably termed alternatives as the tuning community catches up.

the real issue that people should care about is that everyone who has an ecutek tune has relinquished control of the very most important piece of equipment in their car. they are now beholden to the ecutek network of tuners for any further updates, fixes, changes of any kind whatsoever. they are also forbidden (for 'IP' reasons, which is funny coming from a company built on the back of exploiting other companies' hardware and extracting their IP) from even knowing what the hell is going on in there.

people may not care now, but down the road if they own the car long enough they'll come to learn why lock-in and dependency are very, very bad when it comes to the software that runs your $25k+ car.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by jamesm

the real issue that people should care about is that everyone who has an ecutek tune has relinquished control of the very most important piece of equipment in their car. they are now beholden to the ecutek network of tuners for any further updates, fixes, changes of any kind whatsoever.

In order for that statement to hold water then one must first have control of the ECU in order to relinquish it, no? In it's OEM state, you have no more or less control over the ECU than you do with ECUTek.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

In order for that statement to hold water then one must first have control of the ECU in order to relinquish it, no? In it's OEM state, you have no more or less control over the ECU than you do with ECUTek.

this conversation is in the context of those of us who modify our cars and need to then modify the ecu to suit. of course someone with a stock vehicle has no control, needs none, and can just go to the dealer for an update. we're talking about people who require their own, non-standard calibration. those who are currently limited to ecutek or brzedit to accomplish this. those who have taken control of their ecu, either directly or by paying a tuner to perform a service that does so for them.

with brzedit i can pull my map and fix it myself, or pay anyone i deem competent to do so. ecutek does not offer this capability. you're locked into paying one of their 'master' tuners to do so, presuming they're even around when the time comes to do it.

basically, the usefulness of the work you paid for is contingent upon the success of a single entity. if your tuner goes out of business, you're starting again from scratch. even if they are still around, you're forced to return to that single vendor for any future changes. this is terrible for consumers in any situation. i'm sure it's great for business, though.

[ft_sjo]

Right, so what you're saying @jamesm is people who want to tune the car themselves should use brzedit and not ecutek. Right, I think everyone knows that.

This is in the context of the thread, which is ecutek vs brzedit.


So after four pages of drivel, let's summarise:


EcuTek: For people who just want to buy a tune and have no desire to tune their own car.

BRZEdit: For people who want to tune their own car and/or steal the IP of a professional tuner who uses the system.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Right, so what you're saying @jamesm is people who want to tune the car themselves should use brzedit and not ecutek. Right, I think everyone knows that.

This is in the context of the thread, which is ecutek vs brzedit.


So after four pages of drivel, let's summarise:


EcuTek: For people who just want to buy a tune and have no desire to tune their own car.

BRZEdit: For people who want to tune their own car and/or steal the IP of a professional tuner who uses the system.

no, what i'm saying is people who want to be able to fix something without being forced to return to a specific vendor should use anything except ecutek. doesn't necessarily mean that you want to be able to tune it, just that you want to be able to pay anyone to do so. that is an important distinction. it becomes more important as time goes by.

and for the record, with BRZEdit you're not stealing your tuner's IP. BRZEdit gives the tuner the right to make the decision as to whether or not to lock-down the tune. If he agrees not to, then he agrees to let you pull it and modify it in his absence when necessary. It's between you and your tuner. Ecutek forces the lock-in and the tuner can't even do anything about it (they don't even make the necessary tools available to anyone who hasn't paid their ransom). With BRZEdit, I can choose not to do business with tuner's who lock their tunes. with Ecutek i'm not given that option, nor is my tuner.

[ft_sjo]

The consumer has the choice of buying EcuTek (at their own risk, for the reasons you specify), or negotiating with the BRZ-Edit tuner over IP.

I think it's pretty clear what the limitations are and the pro's and con's of each solution.

[jamesm]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

The consumer has the choice of buying EcuTek (at their own risk, for the reasons you specify), or negotiating with the BRZ-Edit tuner over IP.

I think it's pretty clear what the limitations are and the pro's and con's of each solution.

agreed. i don't argue that ecutek can do business in any way they see fit, and there are people out there willing to agree to it. i just think it's important that people understand the long-term implications of single-vendor dependency on something as critical to the car's function as an ecu calibration.

i'll also note that no tuner should have any issue allowing you access to your map. their entire business is built on the idea that it's useless to any car but yours. if that holds water, then it's of no value to anyone else even if i were to share it.

where i disagree is that i don't see a 'pro' for the consumer on the ecutek side. you're essentially paying extra for additional restrictions. otherwise the products perform the same function. there is no upside there.

[Toma]

And ' IP' is basically a useless point. The stuff that makes power can all be logged. Timing. Cam angles. Af targets and actual af etc. Etc. If you think your mail order is that good ...it would be easy to replicate.

Tuning is a logical process and the combination of factors that make the best power can be derived through a method. It would be like saying you wanted to protect the answer of a multivariable math equation.

More than anything it seems with mail order tunes you are paying for what the creator 'thinks' and engine tune should look like for instance in another thread we saw that visonti and fa20club 'think' what an af ratio curve should look like is different. And we have uninformed users saying stuff like 'im buying an af ratio' lmao.

[ft_sjo]

Any monkey can tune for peak power, that's a tiny part of tuning a car.

[Dodzilla]

Vishnu was working on some sort of self-tuning system at one point, I have no idea how that all panned out for them but at some point someone will make it a reality. Tuning isn't magic, it can be codified. The ECUs could even talk to each other, share information, auto-update etc...

Google has already taught cars to drive themselves, a self-tuning ECU wouldn't be that hard by comparison.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by Dodzilla

Vishnu was working on some sort of self-tuning system at one point, I have no idea how that all panned out for them but at some point someone will make it a reality. Tuning isn't magic, it can be codified. The ECUs could even talk to each other, share information, auto-update etc...

Google has already taught cars to drive themselves, a self-tuning ECU wouldn't be that hard by comparison.

I know Hydra has a similar feature available. My understanding is that it's good for getting a base map nailed down but shouldn't be used all the time as the ECU runs a bit slower in autotune mode. I'm not sure how accurate or up to date that info is though.

Automatic Fuel Tuning: You can enable the ecu to perform a closed-loop operation of the entire fuel map with the Auto Tune feature. In this mode the ecu will automatically adjust fueling to achieve the desired air fuel ratios set in each load site. For instance if your goal is to run 14.7:1 under vacuum, 11.3:1 up to 12 psi, and 10.9:1 at 18 psi, the ecu will automatically adjust the fueling to meet this criteria. The ecu will then apply a “long-term” fuel correction and automatically correct your main fuel map so that the “long-term” fuel corrections are kept to a minimum.

http://elementtuning.com/store/#!/~/...245&id=1509847

[Toma]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Any monkey can tune for peak power, that's a tiny part of tuning a car.

You referring to my post? First, after 20 years of tuning, I can assure you you are very wrong. Weve already seen this in the dyno tests on this site. Secondly. ... it is the most critical part of the tune. You fuck that up....u lose the motor. Fuck up part throttle and maybe your fuel trims are out of line or you hit limp home mode or something.

I digress though. Any condition can be data logged. Not just wot. A dyno and other equipment can measure anything you want. Its not a black art. Its math, science and logic.