Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[humfrz]

Originally Posted by ermax

That packing actually looks better than a lot of the ones that have been posted but are you saying this is their second attempt to apply the packing? Maybe they learned the importance of doing it correctly. That pickup screen has little bits coming through but it looks completely packed on the other side. Not sure why they think 70% blockage of the pickup screen isn’t detrimental to oil pressure.

I wonder what percentage of the failed, oil starved engines, failed because of a clogged screen?

Also, I wonder why the oil filter isn't filtering out this stuff? Or is it?


humfrz

[ermax]

Originally Posted by humfrz

I wonder what percentage of the failed, oil starved engines, failed because of a clogged screen?



Also, I wonder why the oil filter isn't filtering out this stuff? Or is it?





humfrz

The oil starts in the pan and then goes through the pickup tube then then through the screen which catches large stuff like picking before actually making it to the oil filter. If the packing is covering a large percentage of the pickup screen then it will starve the engine. Sure the packing may be contained by the pickup screen and oil filter but if you can’t get oil out of the pan then you’ll have a hard time lubricating the engine.

Subaru didn’t throw the warning pictures of clogged screens in their directions for no reason. They are just trying to down play the issue on this guys engine.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by HlfpriceWngs

The sealant was hard and they said it been put back together unsure if they reapplied it or not and corrected the original post. (very frustrated) I'm not to technical with engine internals. They kept falling back on the oil filter will stop the sealant every time,and that it couldn't make it's way to the bottom of the end from the timing cover or from the oil pan.

But....its sitting in the pickup. That right there blows what they're saying away.

[HlfpriceWngs]

Originally Posted by maslin

Those photos show a lot sealant. The instructions specify bead widths, they are substantially larger than I’m used to, guess that Japanese machining isn’t as exact as the Germans.

They’ve been updating the procedure, looks like 2/13 is the most recent. I like this part. Those pictures aren’t fake, they know exactly what’s happening.

Page 31 of the 2/13 update is pretty good too. Lots of yellow highlighter and bold “carefully”. I think they found the problem. Their technicians.

Is there a link to this update, or a PDF proving it's from Subaru?
The more arrows we have, the easy it is to hit the target.

[maslin]

Originally Posted by HlfpriceWngs

Is there a link to this update, or a PDF proving it's from Subaru?
The more arrows we have, the easy it is to hit the target.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/c...72&docType=RCL

It’s all in there. No need to prove it’s some secret document from Subaru, it’s all public.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by maslin

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/c...72&docType=RCL



It’s all in there. No need to prove it’s some secret document from Subaru, it’s all public.

And more specific, page 10 in this doc:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-6522.pdf

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Hell,
This looks like it was still wet when it was sucked through the screen. If that is what it stopped how much made it through?

I've considered that but the stuff sets up pretty quickly. I think the parts have to be assembled within five minutes of application.

[nextcar]

Originally Posted by humfrz

I wonder what percentage of the failed, oil starved engines, failed because of a clogged screen?

Also, I wonder why the oil filter isn't filtering out this stuff? Or is it?

humfrz

Oil filters typically have a bypass valve to prevent oil starvation if the filter is clogged... if the bypass valve opens, the filter isn't going to stop anything.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

I've considered that but the stuff sets up pretty quickly. I think the parts have to be assembled within five minutes of application.

The manual says to bolt within 5 mins but to not add oil or crank for 30mins.

When I was finished doing all my packing I still had some left in the tube but I threw it in the trash because I’ve never had luck sealing up tubes like this anyways. But the next day out of curiosity I pulled it out of the trash and it was only hardened about 5mm up the nozzle. After clearing the nozzle the consistency of the sealant that was left in the tube seemed perfectly fine. I checked back again days later and again it wasn’t harden more than 5mm or so. Most sealants I’ve used the entire nozzle will harden and then travel into the tube making the whole tube useless after sitting just one night.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by ermax

And more specific, page 10 in this doc:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-6522.pdf

The FB procedure is totally different than the FA which explains why I could not find any reference at all to failures after the recall on the FBs.


There is a more recent version of the instructions (Feb 25 issue?) that addresses the application of the sealant on the timing cover. It shows exactly where to apply the sealant to not block the holes. This one only speaks to clean up of the old which is only one of the two possible failure modes.

[maslin]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The FB procedure is totally different than the FA which explains why I could not find any reference at all to failures after the recall on the FBs.


There is a more recent version of the instructions (Feb 25 issue?) that addresses the application of the sealant on the timing cover. It shows exactly where to apply the sealant to not block the holes. This one only speaks to clean up of the old which is only one of the two possible failure modes.

This is the one. No date on it though

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0191.pdf


The fb has room to compress the springs and remove the rockers. No removing the cams, so no removing the front cover to get the chain off.

Mercedes treats us well in that sense, cams come out with the front cover on. Several of the engines can have a timing chain replaced with just one cylinder head cover off.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by humfrz

I wonder what percentage of the failed, oil starved engines, failed because of a clogged screen?

Also, I wonder why the oil filter isn't filtering out this stuff? Or is it?


humfrz

Everybody is so focused on the really scary pictures of the pickup screen that they are ignoring another point of failure. When the engine is apart or when new sealant is applied there are several points where it can be directly introduced to the oil system. These points can be up or downstream of the filter and pick up tube. Any sealant that gets in there may never even make it to the screen or filter. It is not a safe assumption to think that all of the sealant passes through the pan where it can be captured.


The picture of sealant in the bearing oil channel and the written instruction specifically stating it can get there has been totally disregarded by many normally smart guys because they just can not get away from the mindset that that it will be captured by the filtering system. The system can not capture what never makes it to it. The updated instructions (which I can't find right now) make it very clear that the issue can either be old sealant that is not cleaned up properly or new that can cover or break off in the channels. As the picture below shows one of the most restricted passages are in the bearings. Only takes a small piece to be introduced to the system beyond the filter or pickup to float around in there and eventually block a bearing channel. This is why the most frequent failure we have seen documented was one individual bearing.


Personally I can't even blame the techs for the new sealant part of the issue. It is poor engineering that uses a flowing sealant so close to vulnerable oil passages. Just a tad too much or off by a couple of millimeters and bang a bearing is spun! The poor cleanup resulting in huge amounts of material blocking take ups is all on them though.


I sincerely apologize for coming across as preachy or self righteous on this subject but for 2 years I have been saying this was the problem with spun bearings right from the factory and have always been shouted down as a fool since it was "Impossible". The updated instructions and documents provided by Toyota/Subaru show that not only is it not "impossible" but under the right (wrong?) conditions it is actually probable.


I will now put my soapbox away and let the angry mod tell me yet again that I am wrong.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by maslin

This is the one. No date on it though

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0191.pdf


The fb has room to compress the springs and remove the rockers. No removing the cams, so no removing the front cover to get the chain off.

Mercedes treats us well in that sense, cams come out with the front cover on. Several of the engines can have a timing chain replaced with just one cylinder head cover off.

That is it yes. Thank you!
Very easy to see how a slight error could muck up the works. With that volume of sealant used on so many sections it is also easy to see how so much could end up where it does not belong when removed.


I am not a Subaru guy so had no idea what the differences were with the FB engine. I only care about the FA.

[ybotspawn]

I spoke with a friend who is Lead Tech at a local Toyota dealership. He told me that his team is watching all of these and just smacking their heads. He told me the problem is definitely that the toyota techs in general don't have the kind of experience to do this work. So far his team hasn't messed up any of these, but the techs have lost money on every one they've performed successfully. Anyone who has worked in a dealership, as a tech, knows that warranty claims pay the tech differently than other claims. If the tech's take more than the allotted time, they start to lose money. Makes me wonder if Toyota allotted enough times to the techs, given their inexperience, with this level of work. The really disappointing thing he pointed out was that many of the techs messing up these jobs are senior guys making really good money.