who's afraid of buying the first Gen?

[Username]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

The extra 40hp from 08 to 09 was just a retune I think, the hardware was not changed. I doubt they'll suddenly discover 40 more hp in this engine next year like they did with the WRX, and if they do it should be easy enough to get a reflash (Crawford apparently already has the ability). WRX engines have always left a lot of power on the table for whatever reason and anyone can get 265hp with a simple and free open source tune. I don't think the BRZ engine will have as much potential in its stock form, but if Subaru is able to squeeze any more power out of it in future MYs, you can bet the aftermarket will be able to do the same.

From the reviews so far it sounds like there are no complaints about the suspension, and it already looks great, so I don't see what there is to wait for. If you buy it now, you will probably be looking to trade it in right around the time they are coming out with a turbo model (all indications are that it won't be anytime soon), or maybe when the turbos are just hitting the used market, so you are still better off than someone who waited a few years and then bought the mid cycle refresh just for that extra 40hp (which most people who bought right away will already be running).

[blur]

I think I'll wait, rumors pointing to turbo...

Basically, I'd like a car that pushes all my buttons intake/exhaust/tune and be done with it. Just focus on becoming a better driver.

[Midnight Run]

I am getting one regardless..and if the turbo or supercharged version come out later, trade it in for those too!

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by delongedoug

Prepare to be 08 WRX'd.

You catch on pretty quick.

Originally Posted by tranzformer

But the '08 was known to be a let down when it was first released. BRZ is getting rave reviews and I don't have much negative to say from what I read.

How so the FRS/BRZ isn't a let them from the turbo4 crowd? Which is in fact the biggest crowd/market of them all. The 08' vs 10/11' WRX? Low power and tamed grandma look.. The standard FRS/BRZ is right up that alley.

Reviews by the way are being really nice about the car in general are hand picked by Toyota. Take it to an unbiased reviewer and you get as many or more cons and there is pros. Also total of 150 active members across a couple of forums of which half will only be buying the car doesn't take account for the other 9000+ cars that need to be sold. What do the other 9000 possible owners want? Toyota didn't care.

This car is a let down in the present and future market, Toyota wanted to build it for themselves like the LFA not for the consumer, this is made clear in all their releases. If this was a Subaru only or better yet Enthusiast built car, we'd have our cake and be able to eat it too while still pleasing the tree huggers.

The only success this car will have is not because of Toyota's involvement but the fact us gear heads can sling a Subaru turbo mill into it no problem from any future Subaru performance model, that is if you don't buy the STi. And the success will be brought by the Subaru tuners/shops and aftermarket not from Toyota's camp, Toyota guys will be able to play because of this. I'm not too thrill because the Toyota/Scion coming to the Subaru crowd is only a recipe for disaster, 2 different crowds with way different ideas.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

You catch on pretty quick.



How so the FRS/BRZ isn't a let them from the turbo4 crowd? Which is in fact the biggest crowd/market of them all. The 08' vs 10/11' WRX? Low power and tamed grandma look.. The standard FRS/BRZ is right up that alley.

Reviews by the way are being really nice about the car in general are hand picked by Toyota. Take it to an unbiased reviewer and you get as many or more cons and there is pros. Also total of 150 active members across a couple of forums of which half will only be buying the car doesn't take account for the other 9000+ cars that need to be sold. What do the other 9000 possible owners want? Toyota didn't care.

This car is a let down in the present and future market, Toyota wanted to build it for themselves like the LFA not for the consumer, this is made clear in all their releases. If this was a Subaru only or better yet Enthusiast built car, we'd have our cake and be able to eat it too while still pleasing the tree huggers.

The only success this car will have is not because of Toyota's involvement but the fact us gear heads can sling a Subaru turbo mill into it no problem from any future Subaru performance model, that is if you don't buy the STi. And the success will be brought by the Subaru tuners/shops and aftermarket not from Toyota's camp, Toyota guys will be able to play because of this. I'm not too thrill because the Toyota/Scion coming to the Subaru crowd is only a recipe for disaster, 2 different crowds with way different ideas.

I'm sorry you feel thy way. But this car is what I have been looking for. 200hp NA is enough for me. I care more about handling and the driving experience.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

The extra 40hp from 08 to 09 was just a retune I think, the hardware was not changed. I doubt they'll suddenly discover 40 more hp in this engine next year like they did with the WRX, and if they do it should be easy enough to get a reflash (Crawford apparently already has the ability). WRX engines have always left a lot of power on the table for whatever reason and anyone can get 265hp with a simple and free open source tune. I don't think the BRZ engine will have as much potential in its stock form, but if Subaru is able to squeeze any more power out of it in future MYs, you can bet the aftermarket will be able to do the same.

From the reviews so far it sounds like there are no complaints about the suspension, and it already looks great, so I don't see what there is to wait for. If you buy it now, you will probably be looking to trade it in right around the time they are coming out with a turbo model (all indications are that it won't be anytime soon), or maybe when the turbos are just hitting the used market, so you are still better off than someone who waited a few years and then bought the mid cycle refresh just for that extra 40hp (which most people who bought right away will already be running).

Originally Posted by Username

Subaru is known for early cycle refreshes, because we the buyers stick to our guns and don't buy it. They listen to the majority and fold. Toyota wont cater to the masses but Subaru is going to, I already know this.

Anyways the WRX change was huuuuuuge, owners felt like driving their 08's thru the dealer window on fire. 15+% stiffer suspension changing a few parts, black housing headlights, wheels, sti grill, standard aero lip package, bigger turbo(not just a retune), wheels and tires all standard. The car was worth the $500 difference. In terms of Autocross/Track classing the 09' was well ahead of the 08' in every single aspect, If I owned an 08' I would of crash/rolled it, to cash in on my GAP insurance and accident forgiveness. LOL Never did something like that but I would of been very tempted.

2011 was even better with the wider body/track also allowing bigger wheels and tires to fit(but also getting away from the Corolla look), again from a performance/racing standpoint that is MAJOR.

Read it.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/07/31/2...on-sti-tweaks/


*What did you gain from this? Buy the car with GAP insurance and make sure you have accident forgiveness and do it right the first time, you only have 1 shot at this without being obvious.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

How so the FRS/BRZ isn't a let them from the turbo4 crowd? Which is in fact the biggest crowd/market of them all.

LOL what? It's not a letdown for people that understand that n/a matches the character and intent of this car. The best selling car is still the Camry, which does not have a turbo 4, not sure what planet you're on.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Reviews by the way are being really nice about the car in general are hand picked by Toyota........

Hand picked by virtually every publication on the planet? EVO magazine has never been known to pull punches. Are you calling them sellouts too?

Bottom line; what's the beef? You're hating on the car because they didn't make it to your personal specs? You think Toyota bought the media more than they bought all other brands? Don't be so naive.

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Toyota wont cater to the masses but Subaru is going to, I already know this.

Sheesh, really? If you're going to be emotional, at least have facts to back it up. Toyota IS the mass market seller in terms of cars. They ARE catering to the masses. Subaru's sales are in the noise; they need to listen to customers because they lack the market understanding to make confident decisions. Enthusiasts make up a very tiny percentage of car sales. Don't think your opinion counts for much, if anything.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Subaru is known for early cycle refreshes, because we the buyers stick to our guns and don't buy it. They listen to the majority and fold. Toyota wont cater to the masses but Subaru is going to, I already know this.

in other words, subaru done fucked up, over and over again. how many refreshes has the WRX had? if they had just done it right the first time, they wouldnt have to refresh the car so often.... personally im glad toyota is involved.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

LOL what? It's not a letdown for people that understand that n/a matches the character and intent of this car. The best selling car is still the Camry, which does not have a turbo 4, not sure what planet you're on.

Really?? N/A matches the character of the car? Says who Toyota? Well great Toyota's "character" doesn't match the current market trend and the sports car world to be exact. LOL Btw WTF does the Camry have anything to do with a sports car/coupe? Nothing stop trolling.


Hand picked by virtually every publication on the planet? EVO magazine has never been known to pull punches. Are you calling them sellouts too?

I can't say really about them but EVO probably went with the flow or it's too early to judge, once it released or a comparable car comes out, they'll probably sing a different tune.. it's done all the time.

Bottom line; what's the beef? You're hating on the car because they didn't make it to your personal specs? You think Toyota bought the media more than they bought all other brands? Don't be so naive.

My personal specs really? Again stop trolling. I'm not the only one with this thought, Subaru is even saying this about the specs along with the majority of the forums. I didn't say they bought the media rather chose friendly ones.




Sheesh, really? If you're going to be emotional, at least have facts to back it up. Toyota IS the mass market seller in terms of cars. They ARE catering to the masses. Subaru's sales are in the noise; they need to listen to customers because they lack the market understanding to make confident decisions. Enthusiasts make up a very tiny percentage of car sales. Don't think your opinion counts for much, if anything.

AGAIN YOU DONT GET IT we are not talking about the Corolla and Camry. This is not a Toyota bland car, This is not an Impreza it's a lightweight sport coupe/car for FFS, therefore the masses do not apply to this year car, the small percentage enthusiast apply for a Niche car. Toyota forces their goals on the consumer and are bean counters. Subaru listens to the customers because they care and want to build what they and we want.

Don't bother replying to my posts if you are just going to attack me and blindly look at this car as another Corolla or Impreza and not for what it is.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Don't bother replying to my posts if you are just going to attack me and blindly look at this car as another Corolla or Impreza and not for what it is.

Everyone I know in person wants the BRZ to be exactly what it is. They are all track guys though.

The market research showed that this type of car was desired. Hell I've been wanting one for years. If I wanted a STI or similar turbo pig I could have one, but I have zero interest in a car like that. You failed when you started talking about mass market and such.. sports cars are niche cars, not mass market.

I think everyone has tested the car by now so I don't know how you can really say toyota picked friendly ones only.

And it really does look like Subaru just screws up and has to fix it more than anything else. I don't hold that against them really, otherwise I wouldn't bother buying a FRS/BRZ.

Everyone knows that this car won't please everyone, but it sure as hell pleases me on paper and every other track guy I have talked to about the car.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by madfast

in other words, subaru done fucked up, over and over again. how many refreshes has the WRX had? if they had just done it right the first time, they wouldnt have to refresh the car so often.... personally im glad toyota is involved.

Uh, Toyota gave input for 08' WRX styling, trying to Corolla-size the WRX, 09' they tried to gain favor with the refresh but then also shot their current base in the foot, so for 2011 Subaru said we're doing this our way bringing back the wide flares and stopped caring about the Toyobean counters. Now they make the choice to separate the Impreza from WRX to satisfy the bean counters, because they can't bear to put their follower thru it again. It is because of Toyota along with FHI decisions the refreshes had to be done to the WRX.

Same will follow with this car unfortunately because from the beginning Subaru wanted to use this chassis and balance it with their company performance model and build Toyota's version the way Toyota wanted. It would split the market for the 2 cars, Toyota knew that Scion would not survive this in the US, making them marginally different keeps Scion in the loop. Overseas the Europeans and Asians care about N/A and diesel, the US generally don't.

[madfast]

It is because of Toyota the refreshes had to be done to the WRX.

whatever dude. any sane person will read the above statement and know right away how objective you can be

PS: nice ninja edit to:

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

It is because of Toyota along with FHI decisions the refreshes had to be done to the WRX.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Everyone I know in person wants the BRZ to be exactly what it is. They are all track guys though.

The market research showed that this type of car was desired. Hell I've been wanting one for years. If I wanted a STI or similar turbo pig I could have one, but I have zero interest in a car like that. You failed when you started talking about mass market and such.. sports cars are niche cars, not mass market.

I think everyone has tested the car by now so I don't know how you can really say toyota picked friendly ones only.

And it really does look like Subaru just screws up and has to fix it more than anything else. I don't hold that against them really, otherwise I wouldn't bother buying a FRS/BRZ.

Everyone knows that this car won't please everyone, but it sure as hell pleases me on paper and every other track guy I have talked to about the car.

Uh, Ryephile said this Niche sports car is mass market, not I, READ again sir.

More like STI bird, not pig, pig would mean it's AWD and the engine is further forward. Does this look like a pig, it's nearly the same weight as the FA20, while still keeping the balance and mpg with broader power and tq. What do you say? It's going to cost way more?? Negative.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Uh, Ryephile said this Niche sports car is mass market, not I, READ again sir.

More like STI bird, not pig, pig would mean it's AWD and the engine is further forward. Does this look like a pig, it's nearly the same weight as the FA20, while still keeping the balance and mpg with broader power and tq. What do you say? It's going to cost way more?? Negative.

Did you not say this?
"
How so the FRS/BRZ isn't a let them from the turbo4 crowd? Which is in fact the biggest crowd/market of them all.
"

That implies mass market when you say "biggest crowd/market of them all".

The brakes will be bigger and heavier, suspension likely will be too, possibly other bracing, etc.

The only car that was ever sold in a Turbo (or SC'd) and NA version where I would take the Turbo is the 2nd gen MR2. In every other case I'd take the NA version because they have always been lighter, more nimble and more raw. (and if I were building an autocross or race car from a 2nd gen MR2 it'd be a NA instead)

That's what I like. I couldn't give two craps about numbers like HP, TQ, 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc.