Full throttle Electric Supercharger Build Thread

[zc06_kisstherain]

during summer, it lacks little power..still better than stock.
I am so used to ESC now and dont feel i am getting boost a lot lol
I am like wow! car is gonna be damm slow if i uninstall ESC

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by zc06_kisstherain

during summer, it lacks little power..still better than stock.
I am so used to ESC now and dont feel i am getting boost a lot lol
I am like wow! car is gonna be damm slow if i uninstall ESC

So true. With e85, the ESC is a fair bit punchier. Still, try turning it off for a few hours if you can bear it. Ugh. These cars are a lot of fun stock, but man you gotta work that motor hard. With the ESC on it feels like just the right amount of power for the chassis on the street.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by stevo585

Ok well will just have to agree to disagree. I also never said the word "ignorant" nor implied imo. My minor issues have had no effect on my opinion either. Like you I was stating my experience with my car.

Remember I'm in florida with nice 93 octane and no Carb (everyone is catless). So I may just see/experience a bit more powerful cars. Was that KW in the video on a carb tune 91 octane? And if the ESC was on e85 that right there is a bit unfair to me.

I'm also not the only one who agreed weather affects its performance alot (my kit still makes the normal psi so thats my conclusion). Also my quarter mile traps are down alot about 99mph vs 101 in winter. NA I trapped 96-97mph. Be nice if we had more quarter mile data as to me that's a better indication of performance. Have you ran? Be curious to see what the new kits do.

If the new compressor is that much better then I may have to get a quote.

To be fair, you implied ignorance when you said "Not sure if these guys have ever rode in a conventional SC 86 before". Don't agree to that, its ok. It's how it reads to me.

In any case, the reason why the video had a 86 on e85 vs Kraftwerks, is that e85 can be run for no extra cost with an OFT or other open tuning platforms. The tune is out there. So if a Phantom owner has e85 in their area, running Phantom + e85 is indicative of the performance available for no extra charge. Whereas with traditional F.I. + ECUTek (or others) an e85 tune typically has to be purchased for an extra cost.

Fair point about everyone running catless in Florida vs California. That moves the baseline up for these cars quite a bit and may be a big differentiatior vs cars in CARB states. A well tuned catless header + e85 setup can come close to the max output of a Phantom v.1 + CA91 car with the torque curves still being very different. There is one NA car in the graph I posted that put down a VERY impressive 217 WHP (belonging to Danthedirt) on an AFEPower EL header but with a pretty nasty torque dip. A UEL header would kill the dip but have a less impressive top end. ACE headers with integrated overpipe are dynoing similar numbers but without the dip but at premium price. The Phantom kit is for someone that wants the best possible torque output, low cost, and easy install, but doesn't plan on running above 6500 RPM consistently the way someone on a racetrack would (which is actually most drivers, even though they won't admit it).

I haven't put my car on a drag strip, but I would like to. For the few cars that have we're seeing high 13's to low 14's with traps above 100 MPH. Indeed weather matters, I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Thanks for the convo. No matter how it goes, its still good to have a forum to knock these things around.

[stevo585]

Originally Posted by WNDSRFR

Hey Stevo
I'm over in Cocoa and have owned both the V1 and the V2. And I agree that the V2 is of course superior. Whenever the weather cools off a bit I challenge you to a race at Bithlo. Have to get some new tires though. The ones I have now would just spin all the way down the strip.

Yeah I'm down for that. My best is 13.8 @ 101 with 2.15 60'. You really think you'll have that much traction issues? The track is prepped very well now with the new owners. I never spun much on stock tires. On my MPSS I often bog.

Whats your opinion on the V1 versus V2? Remember though I have big cranks on the V1. That alone should make a big difference vs. the power sonics.

[stevo585]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

To be fair, you implied ignorance when you said "Not sure if these guys have ever rode in a conventional SC 86 before". Don't agree to that, its ok. It's how it reads to me.

In any case, the reason why the video had a 86 on e85 vs Kraftwerks, is that e85 can be run for no extra cost with an OFT or other open tuning platforms. The tune is out there. So if a Phantom owner has e85 in their area, running Phantom + e85 is indicative of the performance available for no extra charge. Whereas with traditional F.I. + ECUTek (or others) an e85 tune typically has to be purchased for an extra cost.

Fair point about everyone running catless in Florida vs California. That moves the baseline up for these cars quite a bit and may be a big differentiatior vs cars in CARB states. A well tuned catless header + e85 setup can come close to the max output of a Phantom v.1 + CA91 car with the torque curves still being very different. There is one NA car in the graph I posted that put down a VERY impressive 217 WHP (belonging to Danthedirt) on an AFEPower EL header but with a pretty nasty torque dip. A UEL header would kill the dip but have a less impressive top end. ACE headers with integrated overpipe are dynoing similar numbers but without the dip but at premium price. The Phantom kit is for someone that wants the best possible torque output, low cost, and easy install, but doesn't plan on running above 6500 RPM consistently the way someone on a racetrack would (which is actually most drivers, even though they won't admit it).

I haven't put my car on a drag strip, but I would like to. For the few cars that have we're seeing high 13's to low 14's with traps above 100 MPH. Indeed weather matters, I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Thanks for the convo. No matter how it goes, its still good to have a forum to knock these things around.

I did say "not sure if they...". I could have said "Those guys never rode...". So you know I was unsure and trying to be passive but I get your point. Now I understand you have experience. But as you agree the FL vs CA gas and carb differences are pretty huge when it comes to performance.

This applies to the KW comparison. That being on CA91 and CARB tuning yeah I could believe the race. Since the KW was likely at ~240whp. The ESC car at 225whp with yes much more torque under 5K. But its comparing the worse the KW can be vs the best the ESC can be. Around here I just don't see Carb tunes. Everyone is up near 300 whp on 93 or 350+ on e85 with custom Ecutek tunes. Turbo guys are 500+. Also in part we have "Jamesm" in town who's great at tuning. Banned awhile ago if you remember him.

[Sojhinn]

Originally Posted by stevo585

I did say "not sure if they...". I could have said "Those guys never rode...". So you know I was unsure and trying to be passive but I get your point. Now I understand you have experience. But as you agree the FL vs CA gas and carb differences are pretty huge when it comes to performance.



This applies to the KW comparison. That being on CA91 and CARB tuning yeah I could believe the race. Since the KW was likely at ~240whp. The ESC car at 225whp with yes much more torque under 5K. But its comparing the worse the KW can be vs the best the ESC can be. Around here I just don't see Carb tunes. Everyone is up near 300 whp on 93 or 350+ on e85 with custom Ecutek tunes. Turbo guys are 500+. Also in part we have "Jamesm" in town who's great at tuning. Banned awhile ago if you remember him.

Since I was the guy that tested the kraftwerks vs phantom...


The kraftwerks blew me away plain and simple. I had him to about 50-60 mph and everything beyond that was him. Easily.


Now here's the difference: he's now spent close to 10k on the car.

Around when we raced it was around 7k.


For bang for your buck nothing comes close. Just all the supporting mods needed to run a traditional system start to rack up quickly. And that's not including all the issues that arise when installing the equipment or running that much boost.

Sure it's safe now but how long before something goes wrong? In the terms of the KW? All the damn time for my friend.

The phantom isn't the cure all to FI. It's a fun median though and it fills a niche very few can compete in...

Simple install
5-6 psi
Inexpensive
Reliable

If you look at how long some of us have been running the system... Theres a reason we are really happy. It's just running great.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FingR-S]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Since I was the guy that tested the kraftwerks vs phantom...


The kraftwerks blew me away plain and simple. I had him to about 50-60 mph and everything beyond that was him. Easily.


Now here's the difference: he's now spent close to 10k on the car.

Around when we raced it was around 7k.


For bang for your buck nothing comes close. Just all the supporting mods needed to run a traditional system start to rack up quickly. And that's not including all the issues that arise when installing the equipment or running that much boost.

Sure it's safe now but how long before something goes wrong? In the terms of the KW? All the damn time for my friend.

The phantom isn't the cure all to FI. It's a fun median though and it fills a niche very few can compete in...

Simple install
5-6 psi
Inexpensive
Reliable

If you look at how long some of us have been running the system... Theres a reason we are really happy. It's just running great.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reliable is for sure - i just got a BRZ with supercharger and my first issues are squeaky belt And throwing map sensor codes.
New belt and tune in the works for that = More money and time.

With the ESC, I had shiv do a tune for me and never looked back for 1.5 years. All on original PC batteries . Can't beat the ease of use and install ✔️




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Since I was the guy that tested the kraftwerks vs phantom...

The kraftwerks blew me away plain and simple. I had him to about 50-60 mph and everything beyond that was him. Easily.

Now here's the difference: he's now spent close to 10k on the car.

Around when we raced it was around 7k.

For bang for your buck nothing comes close. Just all the supporting mods needed to run a traditional system start to rack up quickly. And that's not including all the issues that arise when installing the equipment or running that much boost.

Sure it's safe now but how long before something goes wrong? In the terms of the KW? All the damn time for my friend.

The phantom isn't the cure all to FI. It's a fun median though and it fills a niche very few can compete in...

Simple install
5-6 psi
Inexpensive
Reliable

If you look at how long some of us have been running the system... Theres a reason we are really happy. It's just running great.

Thanks for finally chiming in Sojhinn. What I also find to be important about this, but difficult to point out, is that, from a roll or from a dig you had nlowell for the first 5-7 seconds of the video and then he pulled ahead. Those speeds (5mph - 60/70mph) are the speeds people actually drive on the road. Above that and it's lose your license time. If I had put $7-10k in power mods/labor into my car, I'd be a little disappointed that it took so long to finally get around someone who spent $2.5k on theirs. This real world value of the Phantom kit remains the difficult point to illustrate in a world that looks for max HP above all else, but rarely uses it. 86 owners should get this point easily, after all our cars are supposed to be about usable/fun performance, but the power bug bites everyone. It's hard to be satisfied.

[stevo585]

Yes agreed it is a happy medium...no supporting mods is nice. Very reliable and simple. Also moderate power. You have to pay to play. I think you guys might be exaggerating on the costs of conventional FI though. One example is SBD, lots run it around me with just an oil cooler, stock clutch lasts for a bit.

Sad side is no one can buy the kit. So you know this talk is fun for the owners but the community is really missing out.

[radroach]

Does this kit still use the switch under the throttle pedal or have y'all moved to a better solution?

[Target70]

Originally Posted by radroach

Does this kit still use the switch under the throttle cable or have y'all moved to a better solution?

it comes standard with the switch, but you can upgrade and buy the proceede. This lets you plot boost vs throttle %.

[scraejtp]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Thanks for finally chiming in Sojhinn. What I also find to be important about this, but difficult to point out, is that, from a roll or from a dig you had nlowell for the first 5-7 seconds of the video and then he pulled ahead. Those speeds (5mph - 60/70mph) are the speeds people actually drive on the road. Above that and it's lose your license time. If I had put $7-10k in power mods/labor into my car, I'd be a little disappointed that it took so long to finally get around someone who spent $2.5k on theirs. This real world value of the Phantom kit remains the difficult point to illustrate in a world that looks for max HP above all else, but rarely uses it. 86 owners should get this point easily, after all our cars are supposed to be about usable/fun performance, but the power bug bites everyone. It's hard to be satisfied.

Well, don't get carried away on the cost. Sojhinn has quite a bit more than $2.5k on his performance modifications as well. (Exhaust, etc.)

Supporting mods are available for higher power levels, but the KW kit doesn't require anything extra at the carb tune power levels.

The MSRP is $4800 for KW kit including tuning, not to mention the KW kit (or other FI kits) can often be had for less than MSRP. VS $2650 for the Phantom base with required batteries and tuning. Add extra bigger batteries or the PROcede and costs start piling up, really knocking on the door of cheap full time FI. (OFT turbo for $3250)

Not to say it isn't cheaper and simpler to install, but don't exaggerate the cost delta. I really thought about the Phantom kit for a while, but the on/off nature deterred me from following through.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by scraejtp

Well, don't get carried away on the cost. Sojhinn has quite a bit more than $2.5k on his performance modifications as well. (Exhaust, etc.)

Supporting mods are available for higher power levels, but the KW kit doesn't require anything extra at the carb tune power levels.

The MSRP is $4800 for KW kit including tuning, not to mention the KW kit (or other FI kits) can often be had for less than MSRP. VS $2650 for the Phantom base with required batteries and tuning. Add extra bigger batteries or the PROcede and costs start piling up, really knocking on the door of cheap full time FI. (OFT turbo for $3250)

Not to say it isn't cheaper and simpler to install, but don't exaggerate the cost delta. I really thought about the Phantom kit for a while, but the on/off nature deterred me from following through.

I'll try to reply completely to your post. This could get long.

I've ran my Phantom kit with TRD Drop-In filter, Catless UEL - 2.75" OP/ 2.75" catless FP and TRD exhaust which should produce more power than Sojhinn's setup at the time with just a catless front pipe. To be honest, all of those extra mods didn't make the car feel any quicker. In this post Sojhinn runs with stock with nlowell running with an OFH. A UEL offers marginal performance improvement (at best).

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=6985

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnFH4oPutR4"]FT86 OFH Performance Comparison - YouTube[/ame]


I'm currently running my Phantom kit with just the TRD Drop-In filter and Catback and it feels like it pulls harder than it did with all the above extra parts (so I'm selling them). Point is, that Sojhinn's extra mods are probably not making any appreciable extra power at all.

On cost, you're adding costs to the Phantom kit, while omitting costs from a KW kit. What I mean is this...

The Phantom kit doesn't require an OFT to tune it. You can use a Tactrix cable and one of the tunes floating around for it that most closely match your hardware. Kit + Batteries are about $2200 - $2300. Proceed is totally optional. I ran my kit with the 1 and 2 stage (non proceed) switches for 1.5 years and loved it. I ran the cheapest Powersonic batteries and also was very happy. Sojhinn was probably NOT running the proceed in the video that was posted (because it wasn't available at the time). Lastly, the biggest cost savings you barely touched on is that the Phantom can be easily self installed by rank amateurs in about 2 hours. That brings us to traditional F.I....

The KW or any Turbo kit can and should not be installed by an amateur (especially a turbo kit) and it wouldn't be recommended to try. Current estimates on the board are about $1000 - $1500 to install various SCs and Turbos (depending on complexity). So that $4800 number becomes $5800 - $6300 without any supporting mods required at high HP. Sure a decent mechanic could work out a self install, personally I wouldn't.

The $7k and $10 numbers come from nlowell (the owner of the Kraftwerks car) not Sojhinn nor myself. Which probably includes follow-ups just to keep his car running safely. He's posted himself in this thread about his experiences going to Kraftwerks from Phantom. Look it up, then post, it'll save some of these kinds of redundant replies.

Originally Posted by nlowell

Good video, as always! I tried to do an install video for my KW SC but after 8 hours of footage I gave up.... and that doesn't include the fuel injector or oil cooler upgrades needed...

Not really BUT after owning the original ESC and now seeing how the install has become even more simple I really have to hand it to Rob - tons of value in such a simple package. Nicely done.

The costs mentioned are not being exaggerated. There is a reason why Rob keeps the Phantom power levels about where they are. Sure more voltage could be added and/or upgrading the batteries and increasing the capacity of the controller and motor. This would take the costs and complexity outside of where the Phantom kit has its' clear advantages in the market. For that simple reason, there is no need to exaggerate anything. For $2.3k Rob's Phantom kit is unique and speaks for itself.

[scraejtp]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

I'll try to reply completely to your post. This could get long.

I've ran my Phantom kit with TRD Drop-In filter, Catless UEL - 2.75" OP/ 2.75" catless FP and TRD exhaust which should produce more power than Sojhinn's setup at the time with just a catless front pipe. To be honest, all of those extra mods didn't make the car feel any quicker.

I'm currently running my Phantom kit with just the TRD Drop-In filter and Catback and it pulls harder than it did with all the above extra parts. Point is, that Sojhinn's extra mods are probably not making any appreciable extra power at all.

This was the point. The extra cost to bring a KW kit up to $7-10k while running the carb tune doesn't make it any faster and is not required. Thus that number is nonsense. Compare both base kits.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

On cost, you're adding costs to the Phantom kit, while omitting costs from a KW kit. What I mean is this...

The Phantom kit doesn't require an OFT to tune it. You can use a Tactrix cable and one of the tunes floating around for it that most closely match your hardware. Kit + Batteries are about $2200 - $2300. Proceed is totally optional. I ran my kit with the 1 and 2 stage (non proceed) switches for 1.5 years and loved it. I ran the cheapest Powersonic batteries and also was very happy.

No, I didn't add costs to one kit. I picked MSRP for both specifically WITH tuning solutions. Hell, I even left the KW with the more expensive and more versatile ECUtek solution compared to OFT.

You could perform a similar task for tuning on other FI kits too, but is definitely ill advised in either setup.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

The KW or any Turbo kit can and should not be installed by an amateur (especially a turbo kit) and it wouldn't be recommended to try. Current estimates on the board are about $1000 - $1500 to install various SCs and Turbos (depending on complexity). So that $4800 number becomes $5800 - $6300 without any supporting mods required at high HP. Sure a decent mechanic could work out a self install, personally I wouldn't.

Um, no. I even specifically said that ease of installation was a plus, but to say that "professional installation" is required is laughable, especially on a supercharger kit. (self contained oiling system, no exhaust work, etc.)

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

The $7k and $10 numbers come from nlowell (the owner of the Kraftwerks car) not Sojhinn nor myself. Which probably includes follow-ups just to keep his car running safely. He's posted himself in this thread about his experiences going to Kraftwerks from Phantom. Look it up, then post, it'll save some of these kinds of redundant replies.

The numbers include a lot of things obviously not related to making power and are irrelevant. I can find people on the board who spent $10k on modifications and make no more power than stock.

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

The costs mentioned are not being exaggerated.

The cost isn't much higher on the Phantom kit, but you are exaggerating to a large degree the cost of a full time FI kit, especially when comparing to the use case of the Phantom. (very low duty cycle)

Don't take it as an insult as the cost is still much lower and for some it matches well to a low priced sports car. But the numbers mentioned are skewed.