Snow Driving

[guitarman]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I've had many hours of practice in... vacant lots of asphalt.. sometimes occupied by a lone shopping cart or two, usually (but not always) covered in snow.

It's as Jeremy Clarkson says; women cannot deny their attraction to those who can perform a well executed Scandinavian Flick.

Nice one! I think it depends a lot on the SNOW (and the temps); the Eskimo's had a good reason to have 27 different names for it.

Over here on the west coast, a few scant inches of 1/2 melted, ultra-wet/icy snow can stop all traffic regardless of make or tires.

Fresh dry powder, not so much.

[p1l0t]

I got the Blizzack "high-performance" winter snow tires on mine. It still sucks in the snow. Can't go up hill in more than about an inch and half of snow. Luckily we have two other AWD Subarus ast the house. Before the Blizzacks I couldn't drive in snow period.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[p1l0t]

The VSD works amazing in the snow though. I purposely hit a 90 degree turn at 40 mph (with lots of open space and nothing to hit) just to see what the computer would do. It straightened out the car perfectly.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[korhun]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

I got the Blizzack "high-performance" winter snow tires on mine. It still sucks in the snow. Can't go up hill in more than about an inch and half of snow. Luckily we have two other AWD Subarus ast the house. Before the Blizzacks I couldn't drive in snow period.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I was thinking "high performance winter tire" would perform high in snow. Mine are I guess mediocre performance winter tires of Continental, and I'm very happy about their snow performance.. until now 1 try

[Lim]

I was driving multiple Subaru AWD for the last 17 years exclusively.

GTA/Mississauga area.

BRZ/FRS can not compare to them in snow. My first snow last winter in RWD was an eyes opener how good AWD in snow compare to RWD.
And I use winter tires on all 4 wheels.

Multiple issue to look for especially if you switch from AWD:

1) Small incline with snow/ice and no go from stop in first gear. BRZ/FRS acceleration pedal is not linear. It gives accelerated input in the beginning. I wished we had snow mode with reduce acceleration input in the first 20%.
With boosted engine this will become only worse.

To overcome it:
a) Start in second gear (bit more wear on clutch)
b) Turn off traction control (left button, just for start)

2) Going through fresh snow stability. It happened only 2-3 times last year. About 10 cm of fresh snow. Max speed I was able to go straight is 30-40km/h. After that ass starting to go left and right and Traction control getting in a way and cutting power off. On AWD Subaru you would not even notice it.
What to do:

a) if you are brave turn traction off and use your steering to catch your ass. After 20 min of driving I had sweaty back and stiff neck. Maybe it is fun on empty streets, but not when you have cars, buses and curbs all around you.

b) accept your car speed limit.

3) How do you use handbrake to correct under-steer? In AWD/FWD I could engage handbrake and give a bit of gas to finish my turn and stop front from under-steer. Yes it overload AWD central diff but was working.

a) Maybe clutch-in when I pull handbrake just to nudge it? but it is not the same feeling.

4) Be careful on overpass bridges. They ice and I was loosing traction going in straight line. Those icy connection overpass from 403 to 401 are scary on a fresh morning ice with other cars spinning out of control around you.

Now good things:
1) It stops way better. Lighter and maybe also because you tend to go slower. On AWD Subaru I got caught few times when I become to confident and was faster then I supposed to be to stop where I should. Road before traffic light tend to be more icy due to other car sliding and polishing it.

2) Does not under-steer in snow that easily. You actually can take corner with faster initial speed. It's turn-in is better. So I don't actually need to help it with hand brake. But forget about accelerating out of it. Had to wait to be completely straight before putting any pressure on a pedal.

3) if you get in a trouble it is easy to apply correction and put it back in line.

In short.
I would not go up to snowy/icy hills in it if I can help it. I will drive slow like everyone around me and probably a bit slower But if I got too annoyed I always can switch to my wife's Legacy (generally boring car, but still fun in snow). If I need to go to Blue Mountain skiing I will double check the weather and maybe call my buddy with AWD.

With GTA roads driving BRZ/FRS is totally fine 90% of the winter. The rest 10% just has to be slow and sometime maybe take a bus. It's one of few compromises of owning this car.


Gone those days when I was praying for snow to fall and get into my Subaru...

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by guitarman

Nice one! I think it depends a lot on the SNOW (and the temps); the Eskimo's had a good reason to have 27 different names for it.

Over here on the west coast, a few scant inches of 1/2 melted, ultra-wet/icy snow can stop all traffic regardless of make or tires.

Fresh dry powder, not so much.

That is a good point. There are definitely conditions where I wouldn't really risk the drive, but generally, I had next to no issue conquering just about everything.

[Larphraulen]

I use 215/60/r16 (prev gen Crosstrek spec) sized Blizzaks. It gives me about an extra inch+ of ride height with no rub. Also fills out the wheel wells nicely on stock suspension.

Nice for cushioning the potholes come spring time, and giving more clearance for those really snowy days. The increased diameter also helps control the application of torque -- as someone else mentioned, the throttle mapping is quite sensitive on tip-in. Might also help a tiny bit with fuel economy too.

Originally Posted by Lim

4) Be careful on overpass bridges. They ice and I was loosing traction going in straight line. Those icy connection overpass from 403 to 401 are scary on a fresh morning ice with other cars spinning out of control around you.

This is always a good and often overlooked consideration. Lots of these overpasses when you have those 270 degree, clover-shaped on-ramps. Tends to be the area where you typically merge, and are thus accelerating NOT in a straight line.

[guitarman]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

That is a good point. There are definitely conditions where I wouldn't really risk the drive, but generally, I had next to no issue conquering just about everything.

You might change your mind out here in southern BC. IF it snows, the temps usually hovers above freezing during the day and can freeze up overnight. End result = we have kids ice-skating on the roads after only maybe an inch of snowfall.

Too bad they stopped selling those cool james-bond metal-spiked tires...

[soundman98]

[quote=Lim;3280812]I was driving multiple Subaru AWD for the last 17 years exclusively.

GTA/Mississauga area.

BRZ/FRS can not compare to them in snow. My first snow last winter in RWD was an eyes opener how good AWD in snow compare to RWD.
And I use winter tires on all 4 wheels.

Multiple issue to look for especially if you switch from AWD:

Originally Posted by Lim

1) Small incline with snow/ice and no go from stop in first gear. BRZ/FRS acceleration pedal is not linear. It gives accelerated input in the beginning. I wished we had snow mode with reduce acceleration input in the first 20%.
With boosted engine this will become only worse.

To overcome it:
a) Start in second gear (bit more wear on clutch)
b) Turn off traction control (left button, just for start)

of course you're having issues not turning off traction!

i usually just slip the clutch in 1st more to get going.

Originally Posted by Lim

2) Going through fresh snow stability. It happened only 2-3 times last year. About 10 cm of fresh snow. Max speed I was able to go straight is 30-40km/h. After that ass starting to go left and right and Traction control getting in a way and cutting power off. On AWD Subaru you would not even notice it.

you're not on winter/all season tires are you. the oem tires summer ONLY tires. they turn to hard lumps of plastic in the snow.

What to do: GET ALL-SEASON or WINTER TIRES.

seriously. with all seasons, 3-4" of snow is no big deal, i can confidently carry 60km/h knowing i can stop safely. with snow tires in 3-4" of snow, i was leaving lights sideways just because i could. one time, to show my brother how controllable the car was, i was going 90km/h at an angle, allowing the car to follow the crown the lane...

from your description, it sounds exactly like the time i tried to use the oem tires in snow...

Originally Posted by Lim

a) if you are brave turn traction off and use your steering to catch your ass. After 20 min of driving I had sweaty back and stiff neck. Maybe it is fun on empty streets, but not when you have cars, buses and curbs all around you.

i almost always have traction control turned off(press-hold). it's never been a problem to hold the car where it needs to go.

Originally Posted by Lim

3) How do you use handbrake to correct under-steer? In AWD/FWD I could engage handbrake and give a bit of gas to finish my turn and stop front from under-steer. Yes it overload AWD central diff but was working.

a) Maybe clutch-in when I pull handbrake just to nudge it? but it is not the same feeling.

physics. so the reason that the handbrake trick worked with awd is because the wheels were being driven by the motor. the handbrake would slow them down, but because they were still being driven, they could not lock up as easily, giving you modulation between disengaged and fully locked.

so the awd vehicle was pulling forward with the front tires while you created friction on the rear tires. in this case, you want to create friction on the rear tires, but only have the vehicles forward momentum to overcome.

the first method is engine braking, or intentionally running the motor higher in revs, selecting a lower gear than you normally would at the relative speed.

you could also use the same handbrake trick while keeping the vehicle in gear(don't clutch in) to much the same effect that you used it in awd, it would just have much less dramatic effect due to the vehicle weight/momentum.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Lim

I. I wished we had snow mode with reduce acceleration input in the first 20%. .

If you had the AT you would have a snow mode, can they even do that on a MT?

Of course my experience using it was a little suspect as documented in the way back machine here and here.

If I had snow tires I'm sure i would be fine, and fun, but I drive the Suburban instead, or stay home.

[soundman98]

they close the roads around me if we get 3" of accumulation. stupid, but with everyone driving prius' with summer tires year round, no one can get around, and normal becomes a hazard. and when people are a hazard, we need the government to intervene to protect us!

[Breadman]

Originally Posted by p1l0t

I got the Blizzack "high-performance" winter snow tires on mine. It still sucks in the snow. Can't go up hill in more than about an inch and half of snow. Luckily we have two other AWD Subarus ast the house. Before the Blizzacks I couldn't drive in snow period.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

if they arent M+S rated they arent meant for the snow. They are designed for fast driving in the very cold.

[p1l0t]

Originally Posted by Breadman

if they arent M+S rated they arent meant for the snow. They are designed for fast driving in the very cold.

It's a pretty aggressive tread for a low profile tire.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[ROFL it's Waffle]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

If you had the AT you would have a snow mode, can they even do that on a MT?

It's throttle-by-wire, right? That was the reverse problem with my WRX... the last 30% of the pedal was dead (100% input was tuned at 70% actual pedal distance).


My LS 460 has a switch for power mode, normal mode, and snow mode, where power is instant throttle response (quick off the line), normal is... grandpa mode, and snow definitely reduces any chance for breaking traction. I also noticed snow mode keeps the RPM's lower, even adds a little engine braking instead of coasting with no throttle input.


But going back to the MT topic... I think being able to shift the gears defeats the purpose of a snow-mode. Just shift to a taller gear sooner to reduce the chance of breaking traction.