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Old 10-27-2016, 01:21 PM   #29
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I should clarify, the harrop kit retains the stock MAP sensor form factor. The standard install does use the stock sensor, but since the mating surface is the same as stock you can swap in any of the upgraded sensors that fit the stock manifold. I believe the Edelbrock uses a different TMAP sensor so if you want to upgrade that sensor you would have to source it yourself.
I did purchase a 3Bar sensor to install with my Harrop kit.
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Old 10-27-2016, 01:22 PM   #30
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Unless someone makes an install video first, when I get a CARB Harrop kit Ill be doing a step by step video.
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Old 10-27-2016, 01:49 PM   #31
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I probably won't make a video but I'll try to take some detailed pictures when I do my install.
-Matt
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:12 PM   #32
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although retaining the stock MAP sensor is a minus, as it should be replaced.
Not true on either count, unless you really want to read boost off the OBD port.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:17 PM   #33
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Not true on either count, unless you really want to read boost off the OBD port.
The only other advantage I see of running a higher pressure MAP sensor is to be able to run in speed density mode all the time. I believe the Delicious Flash and go tunes are speed density. They don't leverage the MAF at all but that does make them more sensitive to other changes in VE of the engine (exhaust changes, cams, intake restriction, etc...) My understanding is that DT has such a large library of tunes that they can account for most of the combinations that people are likely to run. I'll be using that tune with my Harrop so I'll be sure to report back my experiences.
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Old 10-27-2016, 05:45 PM   #34
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I should clarify, the harrop kit retains the stock MAP sensor form factor. The standard install does use the stock sensor, but since the mating surface is the same as stock you can swap in any of the upgraded sensors that fit the stock manifold. I believe the Edelbrock uses a different TMAP sensor so if you want to upgrade that sensor you would have to source it yourself.
I did purchase a 3Bar sensor to install with my Harrop kit.
-Matt

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I don't think anyone will be exceeding the TMAP's capacity
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Old 10-27-2016, 07:28 PM   #35
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Highly unlikely to exceed capacity of the MAP sensor with either Edelbrock or Cosworth, as that will read about 22psi or 29psi respectively. Edelbrock's smallest pulley produces about 20psi. The Harrop kit as standard utilizes the stock MAP and MAF. If running one of our tunes, it will most definitely need an upgraded map sensor for proper operation.

We've tuned Harrop, Cosworth, and Edelbrock setups at this stage. The Edelbrock kit in standard form seems to produce a good bit more boost than both Cosworth and Harrop, and as such will make a bit more power in standard trim.

While the Harrop and Cosworth kits have the same theoretical potential as the Edelbrock, one feature it is lacking is accurate charge air temperature reading. Cosworth and Edelbrock have the advantage here, as they use the Bosch TMAP's temperature signal for compensation.

Of the Harrop cars I've seen so far, I like them! Can't wait to play with some more.

Sincerely,

Zach
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Old 10-27-2016, 07:31 PM   #36
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I don't think anyone will be exceeding the TMAP's capacity
Good point, for some reason I was under the impression that the Edelbrock kit had a 2Bar TMAP sensor, looks like it's 2.5 so it's good for ~22PSI... Short of twincharging (might be interesting... ) you're not going to hit that pressure, even with the smallest diameter pulley possible.

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Old 10-28-2016, 02:48 AM   #37
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Highly unlikely to exceed capacity of the MAP sensor with either Edelbrock or Cosworth, as that will read about 22psi or 29psi respectively. Edelbrock's smallest pulley produces about 20psi. The Harrop kit as standard utilizes the stock MAP and MAF. If running one of our tunes, it will most definitely need an upgraded map sensor for proper operation.

We've tuned Harrop, Cosworth, and Edelbrock setups at this stage. The Edelbrock kit in standard form seems to produce a good bit more boost than both Cosworth and Harrop, and as such will make a bit more power in standard trim.

While the Harrop and Cosworth kits have the same theoretical potential as the Edelbrock, one feature it is lacking is accurate charge air temperature reading. Cosworth and Edelbrock have the advantage here, as they use the Bosch TMAP's temperature signal for compensation.

Of the Harrop cars I've seen so far, I like them! Can't wait to play with some more.
My tuner says that the Harrop works really well fueling off the MAF, no need for SD tuning. Although it obviously has its merits, it's not necessary. I am aware that DT tunes via SD, so as you state for one of your tunes an upgraded MAP sensor would be required.

Cosworth and Edelbrock do indeed use a TMAP, the E-Force has it's own issues because of this (cured by a D-Box or similar). However the Harrop does have an IAT sensor in the manifold, it's visible in the pic below between the runners:



FWIW, I've been told that the type of temp sensor used is likely to be faster reacting that the TMAP type and therefore more accurate
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Old 10-28-2016, 04:19 AM   #38
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My tuner says that the Harrop works really well fueling off the MAF
Wont the stock MAF top out once you start adding more airflow? It doesnt look like the diameter of the maf pipe is much more than stock?
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Old 10-28-2016, 09:18 AM   #39
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We've tuned Harrop, Cosworth, and Edelbrock setups at this stage. The Edelbrock kit in standard form seems to produce a good bit more boost than both Cosworth and Harrop, and as such will make a bit more power in standard trim.
Yeah, the stock Edelbrock Pulley is 3.25", if I remember correctly. That's ~82mm. The stock Harrop pulley is 95mm (~3.75"). I also have a 90mm pulley (~3.55") that I will probably try at some point.

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Old 10-28-2016, 01:18 PM   #40
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Wont the stock MAF top out once you start adding more airflow? It doesnt look like the diameter of the maf pipe is much more than stock?
Probably would, without knowing what voltages the MAF is hitting it's hard say for certain. Adding a larger range MAP sensor to allow SD tuning would be the answer. The thing is that there is a belief that you need a different MAP sensor than stock and to run SD on the standard blower setup to run well, but a MAF tune works well.
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Old 11-02-2016, 01:15 PM   #41
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Probably would, without knowing what voltages the MAF is hitting it's hard say for certain. Adding a larger range MAP sensor to allow SD tuning would be the answer. The thing is that there is a belief that you need a different MAP sensor than stock and to run SD on the standard blower setup to run well, but a MAF tune works well.
That's correct. Once you top out the MAF, you are pretty much limited to speed density. While it is possible to fit a larger intake and stay with MAF, that would be a bit silly to undo Harrop's hard work. Fitting a larger map sensor at that stage and running speed density is much more cost effective, as is doing that from the get go if you intend to run a good bit of boost through this kit.

A MAF tune works well, and so does a speed density tune. We just happen to do a majority of our tunes with speed density. A MAF tune I imagine would be exceptionally easy on this setup, considering the scaling of the MAF is nearly identical to stock. Either way, the kit is a good one and a pleasure to work with on my end!

-Zach
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Old 11-02-2016, 02:43 PM   #42
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A MAF tune works well, and so does a speed density tune. We just happen to do a majority of our tunes with speed density.
So I take it you haven't found too many issues with variations in the engine VE from car to car based on mods? I know from my early tuning days we ran into problems trying to tune cars remotely with SD since just changing an exhaust system or switching from one turbine housing to another would impact the VE enough to throw off the fuel and ignition maps. I'm not terribly familiar with the speed density tuning in the Ecutek but I would imagine it has to suffer a similar problem. Unless, of course, there's some sort of "learning mode" where you can use MAF sensor readings to help adjust the VE table... That seems unlikely though. Either way, huge VE changes due to things like aggressive cams are pretty unlikely on this platform... at least until more vendors bring upgraded cams to the market.
-Matt
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