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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 06-20-2012, 01:09 AM   #43
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Pay to Play!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tainen View Post
hmm. interesting idea. Having an extreme performance catted torque bias header would be pretty freakin sweet for real SCCA racing for sure... BUT- it would cost so much more, would many people buy it? Since it seems like everyone flocks to the cheap chinese knockoff crap because of price. (thankfully Nameless's axleback is fairly competitively priced, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the real cheap junk from the mass manufacture companies to start coming out soon... batlground twin scroll header anyone? :P as soon as the first container ship arrives with that crap it'll be all over the forums and ebay I'm sure... same with the "UUUU my exhaust fell of my car!" posts)

That is so true, but over the years I've learned the valuable lesson...

If you want to compete, you have to Pay to Play!!!!

I was just commenting on the fact that Jason stated that he is willing to have various options for different customers, I for one would be interested in either the EL with cat, or Tri-Y with cat, and I believe that there are enough enthusiasts purchasing this car that would be willing to pay to play also. One of the great aspects of this car is the relatively inexpensive purchase price, that allows you to spend more money to make it into what you as the end consumer want it to be, if you are not happy with the way the manufacturer produced it.
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:03 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by jedibow View Post
The reason I'm requesting the vibrant cat is because on my Evo (I know this isn't the same car) I ran a test pipe on my exhaust, and after replacing the test pipe with the vibrant for emissions reasons I actually gained (yes read gained) 3 whp. At the time it was unheard of, and for this reason I still have the vibrant unit installed and am happy with it.
We have seen the same in our turbo downpipes. I think part of that may be the slight bump up in backpressure at the turbine housing (specifically pressure added to the primary circuit of the downpipe if you're running a true divorced recirculation system like most good EVO downpipes us) helps the turbo seals shore up a bit. I know Mazda was notorious for flagging catless downpipes as reasons to decline replacing their turbochargers (which failed with or without an aftermarket downpipe).

I certainly know our divorced, catted downpipe for the STi makes ~20 ft lb of torque more than the bellmouth catted and catless offerings on the market depending on design but we haven't done enough research to figure out if the gains are in the specific design of our divorced recirculation design (which is fairly unique with a sump style reintroduction port) or the addition of the cat which said recirc tube does not flow through, or both.

While I think one cat would benefit the behavior of these cars, I have a gut feeling that the secondary location would be the optimal spot for that single cat...too bad SCCA doesn't agree with me.

.....about to go

And LOL at the BATLground header comment. F those guys. For those of you who don't know, this company got a sponsorship from a very prominent turbo manifold manufacturer, Full Race (down in AZ, they do fantastic work and are a great company who takes good care of their customers and has an excellent product line). Full Race sends them an exhaust manifold and they send it to China to have it knocked off. First run comes back, parts start cracking left and right. BATLGround won't even pay for a local fabricator to fix the parts (mainly because they probably pay less than the amount it would cost to repair for the original parts off the boat).

I haven't established my opinions of 'do no R&D, just make me-too products' knockoff artists on this forum yet, but now is as good a time as ever. I am extremely averse to the companies who simply regurgitate the same design with oversized pipes and zero thought with crap-ass high speed welding methods and factories who have never seen the car that the parts are going on.

I have no love for this method of manufacturing by proxy. And I most certainly have no love for companies who directly knock off the products that companies like ours invest time and effort into developing properly only to have our legs knocked out from under us by emerging market cheap labor, poor quality and process control.

Here's an article by Mike Kojima from MotoIQ about why you should say no to knock off parts and what it does for the advancement of our industry:

READ THIS ARTICLE RIGHT NOW.

One of these days I'll do some direct comparison videos of our work vs. the competition and explain how their parts are welded on AutoTIG machines that are basically like a TIG welding sewing machine. It's amazing how many failure points you can find on one of these systems. Add into that use of 18gauge thin wall tubing and poor fitment and you should have plenty of reasons to question supporting companies whose livelihood and business models are demolishing innovation in our industry.



and....off the soapbox.

J

Last edited by Jason@Nameless; 06-20-2012 at 06:35 AM. Reason: i had a typo....oh noes!...damn i found two typos!
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Old 06-20-2012, 05:49 AM   #45
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Well we needed to act fast to get another design out so we pulled the trigger on the catted 1.500 primary to 1.625 secondary design:



So what's next? Obviously the dyno testing is going to give us some good information on where to go with the Tri-Y designs. I'm thinking a 4-1 catless design and a catless version of one of these would be a good second wave of evaluation. In the mean time, we're going to do the 2.5" overpipe (goes between the header outlet and the downpipe, gets the exhaust over the subframe and into the trans tunnel).

More to come.

J
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #46
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There's been lots of scca compliance talk, please keep in mind that not everyone is concerned about this. A well sorted tri y with the front cat deleted and the O2 sensors sorted out is what I'm after.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:30 AM   #47
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Curious as to why you didn't include flex joints in the header?
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:47 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless View Post
Stock: 15.0lbs.
1.625 Primary / 1.750 Secondary Catted Header: 11.6lbs
1.500 Primary / 1.625 Secondary Catted Header: 10.9lbs

J
How much did the factory heat shields weigh? Are they part of the 15.0 lb weight?
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:44 AM   #49
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We're going to see how the header behaves after a pile of dyno runs regarding thermal expansion and determine if the flex couplings are necessary. Our thought for the most part is that the flex couplings were added to the factory exhaust for manufacturability and insurance of fitment, but including flex couplings in our exhaust is completely do-able. At this point we just don't think it's a necessary component for a jig-fit and handbuilt system to fit properly. Additionally, if you look at the other headers in the Subaru market that do include the flex couplings (both in turbocharged and naturally aspirated configurations), they're almost always the first item that fails on those designs. Likewise, the factory flex coupling fails in the WRX & STi up-pipes and they are of a design which is radically different than the flexible couplings available on the market as they have a full internal hard sleeve inside of them. The closest analog that is available off the shelf is an externally braided, internally spiral-wound design which is similar to the ones that we use on our WRX & STi exhausts.

As far as catted vs. catless, we certainly have plans to develop a catless design as well, rest assured. We'll do it! :-D

I have not weighed the factory heat shields, but they are not included in that 15.0lb weight, that is just the weight of the manifold shown in the photo above.

J
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason@Nameless View Post
We're going to see how the header behaves after a pile of dyno runs regarding thermal expansion and determine if the flex couplings are necessary. Our thought for the most part is that the flex couplings were added to the factory exhaust for manufacturability and insurance of fitment, but including flex couplings in our exhaust is completely do-able. At this point we just don't think it's a necessary component for a jig-fit and handbuilt system to fit properly. Additionally, if you look at the other headers in the Subaru market that do include the flex couplings (both in turbocharged and naturally aspirated configurations), they're almost always the first item that fails on those designs. Likewise, the factory flex coupling fails in the WRX & STi up-pipes and they are of a design which is radically different than the flexible couplings available on the market as they have a full internal hard sleeve inside of them. The closest analog that is available off the shelf is an externally braided, internally spiral-wound design which is similar to the ones that we use on our WRX & STi exhausts.

As far as catted vs. catless, we certainly have plans to develop a catless design as well, rest assured. We'll do it! :-D

I have not weighed the factory heat shields, but they are not included in that 15.0lb weight, that is just the weight of the manifold shown in the photo above.

J
But what about all of the header designs on subaru's without flex joints, they always crack at the flanges.. Borla, gt spec, perrin, all of them seem to do it. The only exhaust manifolds I have not seen crack, are the ones with the flex joints.

Its honestly the only reason I never switched from the factory manifolds on my STi.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:19 PM   #51
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Nice looking product but "Nameless" is a hard name to take you guys seriously.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:31 PM   #52
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But what about all of the header designs on subaru's without flex joints, they always crack at the flanges.. Borla, gt spec, perrin, all of them seem to do it. The only exhaust manifolds I have not seen crack, are the ones with the flex joints.

Its honestly the only reason I never switched from the factory manifolds on my STi.
I wonder if stiffening up motor mounts would have an affect?
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:39 PM   #53
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Nice looking product but "Nameless" is a hard name to take you guys seriously.
I dunno, I like it.
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Old 06-20-2012, 12:57 PM   #54
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I dunno, I like it.
Me too, I'll take quality and function over brand recognition every time.
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:15 PM   #55
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What software are you using for your simulations? How do you account for cam phasing and scavenging in the design of the manifolds?

I consider the flex pipes necessary for longevity. They wouldn't be there if they weren't--I'm sure Subaru has finite element models showing the stresses on the system without them. Maybe offer a flex pipe delete option but it really should be standard with the product.
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:18 PM   #56
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But what about all of the header designs on subaru's without flex joints, they always crack at the flanges.. Borla, gt spec, perrin, all of them seem to do it. The only exhaust manifolds I have not seen crack, are the ones with the flex joints.

Its honestly the only reason I never switched from the factory manifolds on my STi.
+1

Regardless i like your approach and if it looks necessary it seems like you guys would incorporate it. Would def prefer that you do some durability testing before releasing these though.

Awesome work!
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