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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


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Old 06-19-2012, 06:18 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by icemang17 View Post
sweet header!!!!

I also think a torque increasing header is a great idea....the high flow exhaust and intake will increase top end power.....the ideal powerband for racing (track) is 4500-7000 or so....unless you need 2nd gear, then it would be 7400 (redline)...
Intuitively I think that a good design (ie equal length and routing) would offset the possible small losses in a smaller stepped design. So far it is the direction I'm leaning. Either a 1.5-1.625 or a triple step 1.5-1.625-1.375. Biasing peak HP at 6000rpm our software said 1.375-1.500-1.625!!! 7500 it indicated 1.500-1.625. But we're doing a few major assumptions on camshaft profile as well as lift, which no-one has at this point. I got the valve sizes, I talked to the guys at Brian Crower to discuss what their thoughts were given their experience with naturally aspirated Subarus and we made the best guess for the information we had on hand. I've searched every FSM and had our contacts at 2-3 major dealerships help in that search and found nothing.

We also used the other data available: What the factory used. While I doubt a lot of the factory's reasoning for a lot of their design concepts, header diameter doesn't have any 'reason' to change the bias for economy or engine behavior for the most part. Now, why they ran an unequal length design (32% variance between Y lengths) from the factory when they could have accomplished exactly what we did is beyond me...but then again, Subaru sends the US insanely unequal length headers for the STi and the JDM model gets EL header w/ Twin Scroll turbo.

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Old 06-19-2012, 06:21 PM   #16
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I vote for:

1) Keeping a primary cat
2) A metal heatshield for a more "OEM " look (so upon a brief inspection it doesn't look "modified")

As far as flow designs - I would test the current design vs. the torque biasing.
Spoken like a true comrade of the Democratic Peoples Republic of California. :-D I grew up there so I feel your pain. And I completely agree that an option for this is of primary concern for California residents. #AlsoTheReasonIMovedToWA

Going to do some look-see from the top and bottom to see how crazy we'd have to go on this to accomplish what you're describing.

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Old 06-19-2012, 06:23 PM   #17
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Maybe two versions.

Some of us may end up making more top end through tuning and maybe cams.

It would be sweet if the torque curve held on for another 500 rpm.
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:25 PM   #18
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Spoken like a true comrade of the Democratic Peoples Republic of California. :-D I grew up there so I feel your pain. And I completely agree that an option for this is of primary concern for California residents. #AlsoTheReasonIMovedToWA

Going to do some look-see from the top and bottom to see how crazy we'd have to go on this to accomplish what you're describing.

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You got it!

I also don't mind swapping parts every couple years, so I don't need too much in the way of "design compromise."

Hell, I have a 3.5L 2GRFE in my MR2 Spyder
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:39 PM   #19
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Maybe two versions.

Some of us may end up making more top end through tuning and maybe cams.

It would be sweet if the torque curve held on for another 500 rpm.
We'll make as many configurations as function for different applications. I did the math again last night and our 2011-2012 STi Sedan TurboBack Exhaust has 20,412 possible configurations. If there's reason to sell multiple designs with varied configurations, we'll do our best to facilitate that. Especially when it comes to preferential items like heat shields vs. ceramic coating. I don't want to jack the price of the base header up just to add provisions for heat shields if someone isn't going to use them. We do have a great stockpile of ceramic wool (one level higher density than the factory heat shield packing - the only place I've ever seen that material on a production car) to work with for bolt on heat shielding options because we pack our mufflers with it. I can put a single 1" thick pad of it on the palm of my hand and blast it with a MAP gas torch without any heat on the other side. We threw a chunk of it, soaked in oil, into a bonfire and it survived intact.

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Old 06-19-2012, 07:03 PM   #20
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We've worked with the US Built Vibrant units (one of the only parts they have made in the USA) which are nice but extremely spendy, Magnaflow, Eastern Catalytic as well as the old Carsound brand. We have sold > 200 of these in 2.5 years with zero failures. And we back the products we incorporate into our systems. If you got a failure, we'd replace it. And it would probably drive us to investigate a change in manufacturer, but up till now we're very pleased with these spun metallic units.

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Good to know.

In many ways I'd prefer catless (o2sim or mounting the so2s a bit out of the flow to fix the cel issue) but I really don't want to deal with cleaning the back of another catless car
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:09 PM   #21
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Concerns on Catless: I'm not as worried about this as it seems you are. The primary O2 sensor is the critical sensor to provide closed loop feedback to the ECU for proper functionality of the fuel maps. That being said, there is a bit of a challenge in getting a good metering of all four runners should we choose a tri-y catless design. The secondary O2 sensor is, on almost all cars, only used for monitory catalyst efficiency and warm-up times. So really the challenge for us is to develop an secondary O2 sensor bung that will limit what that sensor sees so that the ECU doesn't throw a code for primary catalyst below efficiency or primary catalyst warmup. I've run catless on many turbocharged and naturally aspirated engines with no check engine lights if the secondary O2 sensor challenges are met.

Heat concerns: This is a naturally aspirated car with very little backpressure in the primary catalytic converter. If it were a turbo car, I'd expect to see manifolds glowing white hot, but in this application I am not a bit concerned about proximity to the coolant line or the oil pan if some method of shielding is provided. As for melting the coolant hose, you'd have to work REAL hard to accomplish that. Even a small air gap in that are is going to provide enough thermal barrier to prevent that heat from reaching damaging levels. The good news is, we do have the ability to build faceted heat shields to selectively reduce the thermal transfer between critical components. We also have laser temp guns to monitor temperatures on the dyno. And we will be doing so. The other thing to note is that a two dimensional photo doesn't do justice to the distances that exist between these components. We did our best to keep the equal length while optimizing clearance for future development of heat shields as well as keeping this as clear as possible from the engine.

Additionally, if you're worried about track oil temps, we have plans for a thermostatically controlled oil cooler as well - but I think your track driving behavior is going to be the oil temp modifier far more than the headers proximity to the oil pan. Again, all things we plan on monitoring and gathering data from in order to add components that are necessary for optimal design on the street and the track.

As for the O2 sensor bungs, they are in the factory locations up top.

Torque biasing header I think you would indeed sacrifice top end power, but it's really a testing question - if you gain 8 additional ft-lb of torque and lose 2hp at the top end, that's an easy selection to make. We could also do a triple stepped design, but again, that requires all of the real estate occupied by the header.

More questions/thoughts!! Keep em comin'!

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OK so if we just throw the 2nd o2 sensor post downpipe cat that'd work then, for people that have a catted downpipe? I know some in the STI world do that.

OK, you sold me. I'll take a header system with some sort of coating or shielding. Delivered by... say... thursday night, to my front door.

and pick me up some o2 sensors for my daily driver while you're at it- and then you've earned a customer for life.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:10 PM   #22
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Good to know.

In many ways I'd prefer catless (o2sim or mounting the so2s a bit out of the flow to fix the cel issue) but I really don't want to deal with cleaning the back of another catless car
There's always the secondary catalyst in the downpipe. Also, we have contemplated what our options are for making the secondary catalyst the monitored catalyst. Really not much room to get the sensor that far back, but we could always engineer a solution to make that work.

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Old 06-19-2012, 07:16 PM   #23
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would having a single high flow cat scrub the air enough? would it smell funny at all?

Either in the header, or the downpipe, so that way people can drop down to 1 cat for performance and weight reasons, and retain relatively smell free exhaust
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:24 PM   #24
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There's always the secondary catalyst in the downpipe. Also, we have contemplated what our options are for making the secondary catalyst the monitored catalyst. Really not much room to get the sensor that far back, but we could always engineer a solution to make that work.

j
<< kinda forgot about the 2nd cat. Not used to that crap
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:30 PM   #25
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would having a single high flow cat scrub the air enough? would it smell funny at all?

Either in the header, or the downpipe, so that way people can drop down to 1 cat for performance and weight reasons, and retain relatively smell free exhaust
Single cat certainly de-stinks just fine. We run single on all of our other designs. And I had one pass on my EJ22 powered VW Vanagon Syncro on the sniffer recently as well. And it was only about 24" from the tailpipe, with UEL header.

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Old 06-19-2012, 07:33 PM   #26
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Any chance on doing a legit 4-1 ELH similar to the Killer B WRX STI one? I just love that thing

edit: lmao i didn't realize i was posting in a thread for one.

double edit: oh nevermind this is 4-2-1, but still interested :/
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:36 PM   #27
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Oh so as long as I can keep one cat.. I'd be good with the catless header and a downpipe with a cat. Depends on which makes more power but I'd guess the catless header over the catless downpipe.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:37 PM   #28
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yeah... hmm. I'd vote for a real nice catless header setup too, then. Hopefully that becomes more clear when tuning and o2 sensor solutions start popping up.

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Oh so as long as I can keep one cat.. I'd be good with the catless header and a downpipe with a cat. Depends on which makes more power but I'd guess the catless header over the catless downpipe.
We know the catted downpipe makes power, from the other nameless threads- catted downpipe and axleback netted 11whp. So I think you're right. catted downpipe, catless header.
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