NFL: defense bounty system

[tranzformer]

Just playing devil's advocate here but is this bounty system of injuring the other team any different than the normal confines of the game? Isn't one of the reason NFL is so popular is because of the crazy hits that players put on each other? I guess the bad thing is that money was used as a motivator, however there are incentives used in sports for reaching milestones in regards to home runs, getting an MVP, throwing x number of yards...etc. I could see an issue if dirty plays/hits were utilized, but if a clean/legal hit was used to injure the other player, really a big a deal? Once again, just playing devil's advocate. What do you guys think?

[suprachica79]

I'd have to agree with you. Players in the NFL are paid to hit. If they started playing dirty, making dirty hits for the sole purpose of severly injuring a guy that's one thing, but if they are making clean contact, I don't see the big deal. I think some of these guys, whether there is a pay-for-pain program going on or not, are still going to hit to injure ie. harrison from the steelers. (I'm a steelers fan so don't get on me about harrison, he's a dirty player.) And others are going to make clean hits so they don't get flagged. They should be putting their entire body behind the hit, regardless if that player has a bounty on him or not.

[M-17]

When I heard this story last night I was not surprised at all. I thought everyone knew about this or had some sense that some teams were putting bounties on other players.

The only problem I have with it is the legal hits vs. illegal or the overly excessive hits.
For one player to knock someone out in a legal fashion thats part of the game, I'm okay with.
If one player goes out there just to break someone legs, as an example, then I have a problem with that.
Play as the game was meant to be played. If an injurry occurs well that's a part of the game. It's not part of the game to put someone in hospital or end someone's career, that's just straight up plain dirty.

The saints should get penalized but I think taking away draft pics is going a bit to far imo.

[M-17]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

I'd have to agree with you. Players in the NFL are paid to hit. If they started playing dirty, making dirty hits for the sole purpose of severly injuring a guy that's one thing, but if they are making clean contact, I don't see the big deal. I think some of these guys, whether there is a pay-for-pain program going on or not, are still going to hit to injure ie. harrison from the steelers. (I'm a steelers fan so don't get on me about harrison, he's a dirty player.) And others are going to make clean hits so they don't get flagged. They should be putting their entire body behind the hit, regardless if that player has a bounty on him or not.

I actually don't think Harrison is that much of a dirty player. He does make some legal hits, its just that he overpowers everyone and his opponents just can't take it.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by M-17

When I heard this story last night I was not surprised at all. I thought everyone knew about this or had some sense that some teams were putting bounties on other players.

The only problem I have with it is the legal hits vs. illegal or the overly excessive hits.
For one player to knock someone out in a legal fashion thats part of the game, I'm okay with.
If one player goes out there just to break someone legs, as an example, then I have a problem with that.
Play as the game was meant to be played. If an injurry occurs well that's a part of the game. It's not part of the game to put someone in hospital or end someone's career, that's just straight up plain dirty.

The saints should get penalized but I think taking away draft pics is going a bit to far imo.

Agreed. Illegal hits are illegal. But legal "dirty" hits are still legal. If an opposing player is injured by a legal hit, I don't see a problem with that. Even if it leads to a broken bone, trip to the hospital or even shortens their playing career. Football is a physical game. Don't see an issue with wanting to hit the other player and put him out? The other side is trying to do the exact same thing to your guy.

[M-17]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

Agreed. Illegal hits are illegal. But legal "dirty" hits are still legal. If an opposing player is injured by a legal hit, I don't see a problem with that. Even if it leads to a broken bone, trip to the hospital or even shortens their playing career. Football is a physical game. Don't see an issue with wanting to hit the other player and put him out? The other side is trying to do the exact same thing to your guy.

That's right, but to deliberately say I'm going out there and I'm going to break this guys neck, back, or legs is not what I would like to see as it's most likely going to be directed towards star players.

[Capt Canuck]

Incentivizing hits that injure players immediately invalidates any respect you say you have for your opponent. How hypocritical would it be (has it been) for William's coached defenses to get into the typical players prayer circle, while a player is being stretchered off, knowing one of them is getting a bonus check because of it.

As a Seahawks fan, over the years watching Jacob Green, Rufus Porter, Julius Peterson, etc... drop a QB made me giddy as a schoolgirl at her first Beber concert; however, if they subsequently kicked him in the junk or spit on him, well not so much.

IMHO, paying an injury bonus is the same as any form of disrespecting your opponent or to make it more hyperbolic, disrespecting your fellow human being.

Also, isn't another big issue the source of the bounty funds? I thought some dodgy folks were involved in that?

Off topic: Harrison became the poster boy for 'dirty hits' because of his lack of contrition. Watch 3 or 4 games a week and we all see hits that go unpenalised that likely would have got him hit with a $50k fine.

[M-17]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

Incentivizing hits that injure players immediately invalidates any respect you say you have for your opponent. How hypocritical would it be (has it been) for William's coached defenses to get into the typical players prayer circle, while a player is being stretchered off, knowing one of them is getting a bonus check because of it.

As a Seahawks fan, over the years watching Jacob Green, Rufus Porter, Julius Peterson, etc... drop a QB made me giddy as a schoolgirl at her first Beber concert; however, if they subsequently kicked him in the junk or spit on him, well not so much.

IMHO, paying an injury bonus is the same as any form of disrespecting your opponent or to make it more hyperbolic, disrespecting your fellow human being.

Also, isn't another big issue the source of the bounty funds? I thought some dodgy folks were involved in that?

Off topic: Harrison became the poster boy for 'dirty hits' because of his lack of contrition. Watch 3 or 4 games a week and we all see hits that go unpenalised that likely would have got him hit with a $50k fine.

- Well said Canuck and I absolutely agree with those two first statements.

- I'm not sure if you mean Harrison's previous tackles were legal or illegal in your eyes, not with Gooden's, because I don't see eye to eye with Gooden that much when it comes to him handling Harrison.
And I don't know if you ever played football at all or even as young little kid, but Harrison's lack of contrition comes from how he was taught to play the game at his early stages. Most coaches go about teaching their players on putting their opponents in there place even if it means getting hurt.

[Capt Canuck]

Originally Posted by M-17

... Most coaches go about teaching their players on putting their opponents in there place even if it means getting hurt.

That's it! Rightness and wrongness aside, I can see how the way some guys play they have to buy into that 'warrior'/'go to war' mentality and how that is promoted by their coaches.

The coaches have a captive/suggestive audience, so the buy in for bounties must be fairly easy.

[suprachica79]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

That's it! Rightness and wrongness aside, I can see how the way some guys play they have to buy into that 'warrior'/'go to war' mentality and how that is promoted by their coaches.

The coaches have a captive/suggestive audience, so the buy in for bounties must be fairly easy.

My issue with Harrison is that he goes to make an illegal hit on purpose. It's not the whole "lack of contrition" that bothers me, it's the fact that he plays with the intention of illegally hitting players and doesn't care. Just to bring up an example, the Colt McCoy hit this past year. He purposely shot up, going helmet to helmet with McCoy, knowing full well that it was an illegal hit, and basically said, "I don't care, that's how I play the game." Well that's not supposed to be the way you play the game. As much as it sucks for us Steelers when he is not on the field, he is a liability on the field for the whole NFL and should be suspended, and if he still doesn't get it, he should be banned from the sport. I don't care how good you are, if you intend to make illegal hits and send people to the hospital, you need to be taken off the field.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by suprachica79

My issue with Harrison is that he goes to make an illegal hit on purpose. It's not the whole "lack of contrition" that bothers me, it's the fact that he plays with the intention of illegally hitting players and doesn't care. Just to bring up an example, the Colt McCoy hit this past year. He purposely shot up, going helmet to helmet with McCoy, knowing full well that it was an illegal hit, and basically said, "I don't care, that's how I play the game." Well that's not supposed to be the way you play the game. As much as it sucks for us Steelers when he is not on the field, he is a liability on the field for the whole NFL and should be suspended, and if he still doesn't get it, he should be banned from the sport. I don't care how good you are, if you intend to make illegal hits and send people to the hospital, you need to be taken off the field.

+1. Illegal hits is one thing that I'm sure all of us can agree upon. But I don't see an issue with a clean legal hit that hurts the other player. That is the game of football and why it is so popular.

[suprachica79]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

+1. Illegal hits is one thing that I'm sure all of us can agree upon. But I don't see an issue with a clean legal hit that hurts the other player. That is the game of football and why it is so popular.

Definitely. I have zero issue with a clean hit that results in an injury, it happens all of the time. Hence the term competitive violence. It is a violent sport, there's no getting around that. I even have a problem with some of the new rules the past few years that basically allow primadonna QBs to bitch about a defender tapping them. They have taken a lot away from the rawness of this sport. But taking away those things, and allowing habitual illegal-hit offenders to continue to play the game completely unscathed (I'm sorry but a fine that is less than 1% of your annual earnings is no punishment) is ridiculous. Suspend him a couple games = loss of paycheck, and then maybe he'll wise-up.

[M-17]

I had discussion today about Harrison and of course the Colt McCoy incident came up.
In my opinion when Harrison goes out there and makes a play he just goes into it without thinking about it. However that time he knew what he was doing and to say he didn't care is pretty ****ed up.

Anyways, what my friend brought to attention today was how come Harrison makes hard hits and gets penalized, but when Ray Lewis does the same he doesn't get penalized?
I got to say that's a good point. Maybe Ray Lewis is getting too old I would say, but that's really a weak answer. Then I remembered didn't he light up Ward last season with a helmet to helmet. So after just looking it up recently I find this.
“Yeah, I heard from the league and like I said they fined me whatever they was going to fine me,” Lewis said. “The thing is you definitely respect them trying to protect player safety. At the same time, it won’t change not one way I play this week no matter what the fine is. You can’t stop playing defense the way defense has always been created to play. When the receiver has the ball, your job is to disengage him from the ball. You never want to hurt nobody. I’ve been in this business too long. I just think once you start getting into these fines I don’t know how they come up with the numbers most of the time.”
Interesting Lewis, at least he can be modest, but the fact is he did it, that tackle happened, and it goes to show that this is a part of the game.

For me this has been the best topic in a while (no more Manning talk) and many people can weigh in on this. Even if you'r not truly a real football fan. For instance my girlfriend thinks its awesome while my sister thinks it a disgusting act of criminal-ism.
And from what I heard I think it was the Dan Patrick show, they had ran a poll question today: If you're with the defensive team in the locker room and everyone is okay with the bounty system. Would you go along with your teammates or be against it?
My friend told me it was like 60% that agreed to go along with the bounty system. What's everyone's take on that? I'll tell you my answer, after I hear some from the rest from you guys.

[tranzformer]

Read an interesting article online. Here were some quotes that I found interesting. Not that we all have to agree with them:


- "Many former players say "bounty" incentive programs have existed in professional football for a long time. Players, who question why this scandal is shocking so many fans, say football is a violent sport built around punishing your opponent."

- "Arrington said the best players in the history of football have always brought a 'seek and destroy mentality' to the game."

- "'So in a culture where it's an unwritten part of the game to get the best opposing player out of it, that's what players have done and still do to this day. The fact that there's such outrage appears to be a bit strange to me,' Arrington wrote on his blog Monday."

- "'You want an edge mentally. You want to break your opponent's will to win. In football the best way to break their will is to break their body,' Wire said."


http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/05/sp...dal/index.html