More confirmation from Toyota on next gen 86

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by BigHugeFatGuy

No, that's a muscle car.
Sports car cares #1 about handling/cornering. It's about spirited driving, enjoying a twisty road even at legal speeds. Look at the very first sports cars and their low output, and even the MR2 with 138 hp, or a 143 hp Lotus Elise. Old MGs, Triumphs, Opel GT, those aren't sports cars? By your definition, the 86 isn't a sports car.
I think you're bored and trolling.

I think he's just an idiot and believes his own bullshit.

[Riftur]

You know what, I am wrong. HP means nothing to a sports car at all. They should have 3 cylinder engines in them. Even the people who say the car does not need anymore, realize it does not have more because of cost. Not because it wouldn't make a better sports car.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Riftur

Umm, do you even understand what it says in the wiki page you posted? I do not think you do. No one said that because the car has low HP that it's not a sports car. It basically states exactly what I said.

I read interviews from multiple automotive higher ups like CEOs, drivetrain and suspension engineers etc etc, people like Gordon Murray, Matt Becker (to name just two) and when asked what the most important characteristic is in a car, most of them said steering. Not one person mentioned power. Most of the people listed the Lotus Elan as their favourite sports car of all time, which has 115 hp and 108 lb ft. Chris Harris drove the 86 and 370Z back to back and preferred the 86, even though the Z has more power. I see what you're saying and I do agree that having power IS good, but it is far from the most important, let alone defining, feature of a sports car.

Sadly the endless horsepower races is what's creating this sentiment and all it's doing is creating identical cars with no real performance difference between them because at this point the bottle neck is tire technology.

The ML55 Merc SUV makes a ton of power and puts it down to the ground, does that make it more of a sports car than the 86? I don't know man...

It's all about steering feedback, the perfect positioning of the driver in the cockpit, the proximity, weight and uniformity of driver controls (pedals, stick), chassis balance, light weight, etc etc.

But we can agree to disagree.

[Riftur]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

I read interviews from multiple automotive higher ups like CEOs, drivetrain and suspension engineers etc etc, people like Gordon Murray, Matt Becker (to name just two) and when asked what the most important characteristic is in a car, most of them said steering. Not one person mentioned power. Most of the people listed the Lotus Elan as their favourite sports car of all time, which has 115 hp and 108 lb ft. Chris Harris drove the 86 and 370Z back to back and preferred the 86, even though the Z has more power. I see what you're saying and I do agree that having power IS good, but it is far from the most important, let alone defining, feature of a sports car.

Sadly the endless horsepower races is what's creating this sentiment and all it's doing is creating identical cars with no real performance difference between them because at this point the bottle neck is tire technology.

The ML55 Merc SUV makes a ton of power and puts it down to the ground, does that make it more of a sports car than the 86? I don't know man...

It's all about steering feedback, the perfect positioning of the driver in the cockpit, the proximity, weight and uniformity of driver controls (pedals, stick), chassis balance, light weight, etc etc.

But we can agree to disagree.

I actually agree with you 100%. If a car can not handle the HP it has, like FWD cars with high HP, there is no purpose at all to having that power. The 86 would be able to handle a power bump though. I bought my FRS because of everything you listed. It handles incredibly, feels great, is fun as hell to drive. Yet someone saying that HP means absolutely nothing to a sports car is just ridiculous. No matter how much you think the car does not need anymore, that is not the same as saying HP means nothing to sports cars.

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by Riftur

You know what, I am wrong. HP means nothing to a sports car at all. They should have 3 cylinder engines in them.

There are some fantastic sports cars that do:

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Riftur

I actually agree with you 100%. If a car can not handle the HP it has, like FWD cars with high HP, there is no purpose at all to having that power. The 86 would be able to handle a power bump though. I bought my FRS because of everything you listed. It handles incredibly, feels great, is fun as hell to drive. Yet someone saying that HP means absolutely nothing to a sports car is just ridiculous. No matter how much you think the car does not need anymore, that is not the same as saying HP means nothing to sports cars.

That's reasonable. Any sporty version of a car you can think of that was based on a more mainstream version usually gained power in the process, be it the Fiat 500 going from 11 hp to 28 hp to the M5 going from 200ish IN 5-series guise to 400ish in M form. I feel like the same performance gains can be achieved without increasing power though. I think one of the Ferrari F430 versions lost 100 lb instead of gaining power. Instead they added handling upgrades and such. But yeah, weight loss vs power gain are two methods used, roughly speaking.

[StraightOuttaCanadaEh]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

There are some fantastic sports cars that do:

The base Mini Cooper has a 3-cyl turbo engine and that thing squirts out of corners like it's nobody's business. Among car people (in Europe at least), 3-cyl engines are actually spoken of rather fondly

[Yoshoobaroo]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

That's reasonable. Any sporty version of a car you can think of that was based on a more mainstream version usually gained power in the process, be it the Fiat 500 going from 11 hp to 28 hp to the M5 going from 200ish IN 5-series guise to 400ish in M form..

Something people tend to not realize is that for that to be financially viable you need volume. 20k cars/year worldwide won’t cut it. The Miata sells 30-40k cars a year and still shares it’s engine with 5 other Mazda models. That’s why getting the 2.4 and sharing much of the long block with the Ascent makes sense.

[Riftur]

Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanadaEh

That's reasonable. Any sporty version of a car you can think of that was based on a more mainstream version usually gained power in the process, be it the Fiat 500 going from 11 hp to 28 hp to the M5 going from 200ish IN 5-series guise to 400ish in M form. I feel like the same performance gains can be achieved without increasing power though. I think one of the Ferrari F430 versions lost 100 lb instead of gaining power. Instead they added handling upgrades and such. But yeah, weight loss vs power gain are two methods used, roughly speaking.

Finally, someone I can actually have a real discussion with. I get a bit annoyed with people who are so close minded that they actually try to convince everyone that HP means absolutely nothing to a sports car. Even though I agree it does not make a sports car alone, it does matter. Porsche is the best example of it. They had lower HP than most sports cars in their price range, but they were able to utilize all of it.

[James H]

Originally Posted by Riftur

You know what, I am wrong. HP means nothing to a sports car at all. They should have 3 cylinder engines in them. Even the people who say the car does not need anymore, realize it does not have more because of cost. Not because it wouldn't make a better sports car.

That's right. Bruce Lee only weighs 140lbs and is not bulked up like most WWE wrestler but he is a true athlete and fighter. I'll put my money on him in a fight against a muscle head any day. A high HP car is a muscle car because high HP ultimately means more weight and that kills agility. You cannot drive a high HP car with finesse. and just because you can afford it, doesn't mean throwing more money-HP into a car makes it better.

[James H]

Originally Posted by Riftur

Wow, you should really tell that to Porche, Ferrari, Aston Martin etc etc. They have no idea how to make a sports car then. Or maybe you do not think they are sports cars?

They used to but not anymore. They have become businesses that cater to clients with money to buy them as status symbols. Sports cars don't have 18 way adjustable cooled and heated seats. True car enthusiasts are far and few between. Those cars only have power on paper for bragging rights. The electronic nanny probably gives only 20% of the real power most of the time. Try driving a 1980s car with 100bhp and no traction controls, they are more dangerous than today's 500bhp car.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by 86MLR

NA, they typically don't



Marketing is a wonderful thing



Smoothing does wonders too



In the end the torque dip isn't really a issue, but marketing psychology make people think it is, so therefore it is

I had read so much about the torque dip before I bought my FR-S. I test drove an FR-S back when they first were released, and I didn’t notice anything on the test drive, but I wasn’t thrashing the car. No matter how you slice it, there is a strange loss of power from 3,500ish RPM until nearly 5000 RPM. Then it’s like the engine wakes up again and screams to redline. It may just be a quirk of the FA20. Flat fours can act strange at times, I got used to that with my WRX. Especially turbo flat fours. Lol

I don’t think it’s just psychological, that loss of power is very real. IMO it doesn’t hurt the driving experience very much, only in specific situations. So that brings up something very interesting. I watched a review on Lovecars where they drove every generation of Civic Type R. Of course the earlier ones were the most playful and analog feeling, and Honda was designing incredible NA engines at the time. But even Honda had to throw in the towel and turbo the last two versions. It is literally the only way to make a fast car now and meet emissions, with a nice flat torque curve. Toyota and Subaru absolutely could use a turbo version of the FA20. The twins would be faster, and possibly even achieve better MPG. Packaging might be a problem, unless they design the 2nd gen for a turbo from day one. It still wouldn’t be as fast as a Supra, so no stepping on toes there.
Personally I love the 86 the way it is, it’s plenty quick enough for me. If they keep the twins NA I’m fine with that, just eliminate the torque dip, or whatever it is.


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[venturaII]

Originally Posted by James H

Try driving a 1980s car with 100bhp and no traction controls, they are more dangerous than today's 500bhp car.

Utter bullshit. What's dangerous are drivers who have grown up with 500 horsepower, 4000lb+ SUVs and sedans with all the electronic nannies working overtime to keep the idiot behind the wheel from stuffing it into a ditch because they have ZERO comprehension of basic automotive physics, and ZERO reason to learn anything because the vehicle is a rolling bank vault filled with a dozen airbags, active seatbelts, lane correction, etc. You could drive into a bridge abutment and get out and walk away. A 100 horsepower VW Rabbit is a fucking joy to drive.

[Riftur]

Originally Posted by James H

They used to but not anymore. They have become businesses that cater to clients with money to buy them as status symbols. Sports cars don't have 18 way adjustable cooled and heated seats. True car enthusiasts are far and few between. Those cars only have power on paper for bragging rights. The electronic nanny probably gives only 20% of the real power most of the time. Try driving a 1980s car with 100bhp and no traction controls, they are more dangerous than today's 500bhp car.

I used to drive a 1980 Vette back in the day. A true Muscle car (well what a muscle car was in the 1980's because of the gas crisis). It handled like complete crap and only went fast in a straight line. I am an not young.