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Forced Induction Turbo, Supercharger, Methanol, Nitrous


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Old 10-13-2014, 08:09 AM   #5447
bfrank1972
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You're not going to see similar results because gasoline requires more air than E85 to burn. At least some of the power you make with E85 comes from the fact that you can burn more of it for the same volume of air.

Obviously a comparison to nitromethane is ridiculous but it works much the same way. Nitro has less energy density than gasoline but you can literally burn almost 9 times as much nitro with the same amount of air, so you can make absurd power.

I didn't think it worked that way, E85 is less energy dense than gas, you see more power in E85 because of less volatility and better cooling (more timing, more boost on fi).


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Old 10-13-2014, 08:46 AM   #5448
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You use more E85 for the same amount of air because ethanol brings its own oxygen.

If you're planning a party and know your guests will bring their own beer, you can either order less kegs or invite more guests.
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Old 10-13-2014, 08:59 AM   #5449
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I didn't think it worked that way, E85 is less energy dense than gas, you see more power in E85 because of less volatility and better cooling (more timing, more boost on fi).
Yeah. and you burn more of it. ALL of that works with nitromethane too. That's why I said at least some of the extra power comes from burning more fuel. When your compressor is capable of generating a max of 300 horsepower on gasoline and then on E85 you're generating over 300 to the wheels, there's more going on than a slight boost because you can run more timing.
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Old 10-13-2014, 09:50 AM   #5450
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Yeah. and you burn more of it. ALL of that works with nitromethane too. That's why I said at least some of the extra power comes from burning more fuel. When your compressor is capable of generating a max of 300 horsepower on gasoline and then on E85 you're generating over 300 to the wheels, there's more going on than a slight boost because you can run more timing.
Energy density.
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Old 10-13-2014, 10:19 AM   #5451
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You use more E85 for the same amount of air because ethanol brings its own oxygen.

If you're planning a party and know your guests will bring their own beer, you can either order less kegs or invite more guests.
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Yeah. and you burn more of it. ALL of that works with nitromethane too. That's why I said at least some of the extra power comes from burning more fuel. When your compressor is capable of generating a max of 300 horsepower on gasoline and then on E85 you're generating over 300 to the wheels, there's more going on than a slight boost because you can run more timing.

I'm genuinely curious about this - didn't think it had more to do with it other than extra cooling effect brought by greater fuel volume and the greater stability allowing extra timing - I always thought that you make so much more power on FI because FI (especially on a car with a high CR) requires timing to be pulled back quite a bit as boost increases. I didn't think it had to do with Ethanol "bringing more oxygen" as combustion just has to do with the reaction of the existing molecule with O2 in the atmosphere (i.e. the oxygen atom is not dissociated from the ethanol molecule). Chemistry isn't my strong suit though - I found an interesting post on it though

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-analysis.html
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Old 10-13-2014, 11:45 AM   #5452
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Ethanol is wonderful stuff and we did a post a while ago on another forum about ethanol mathematically. To be honest it has been a while since I reviewed the math and it comes down to BTU's (British Thermal Units).

BTU Defined: The amount of energy required to increase the temperature of 1 pound of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit, at normal atmospheric pressure.

Gasoline BTU's equals 114,000
Ethanol (100% Pure) BTU's equals 76,100 (much lower than Gasoline)
E85 BTU's equals 81,800 (depending on pump content)

So this means to run pump ethanol (E80, usually what comes out of Pearson pumps) you would need to run 1.36 times the amount of E80 to equal the same BTU's as Gasoline. Here is the math...

We need to find the BTU's of our mix E80
-> Pure Ethanol (* 80%) + Gasoline (* 20%)
-> 60880 + 22800 = 83680 BTU's for E80

We need to equal the same BTU's of gasoline from our E80 mix
-> Gasoline BTU / E80 Mix BTU (from above)
-> 114,000 / 83680 = 1.36

Now that we know we need more ethanol per combustion stroke but what does this mean? Well the difference between ethanol and gasoline is that ethanol has a higher threshold for detonation, has additional cooling properties and in general a higher octane rating (between 104-108 Octane compared to 91-93 octane).

So think about pumping gasoline 100 octane (nearly $10 a gallon now) into your vehicle, how does it respond? Usually amazing and with a little tuning you get a LOT more power. Ethanol is the same thing except you need to run more fuel to make up for the missing BTU's required to burn at the optimal A/F ratios similar to gasoline.

Hope that makes sense. So based on the ethanol content used in your vehicle will determine the amount of advance you can add and the amount of fuel required to equal the proper number of BTU's.

Is E80 financially beneficial versus 100 octane fuel, being this is the comparable fuel for power.
-> 100 octane fuel $10 (currently in SoCal) a gallon
-> E80 fuel is $3.25 (currently in SoCal) a gallon

For every gallon of 100 octane burned you would need to burn 1.36 times that with E80. So we find that E80 equals out to about $4.42 ($3.25 * 1.36) for 1.36 gallons to burn an equivalent amount of BTU's for one gallon of 100 octane. So less than half the price of 100 octane you can make the same power (or more) as 100 octane with appropriate modifications to your vehicle.

So with that in mind we are able to make more power (advancing the timing) because of the octane rating of the fuel. Along with the fact that ethanol has a greater cooling properties than gasoline to keep pre-detonation at a distance and allow us to push the timing further.

From what I have seen you can not get the same power potential from a meth/water injection kit as you can with E85. It does help but just does not have the same potential. One of our main concerns with the meth injection is the stability/mixture/quantity/consistency of the system. We have worked on my of the kits that are out there and have yet to see one that is repeatable over a period of a few months to a year.

Because of the concerns of repeat ability every system we have used we suggest people use them what they were intended for, a safety mechanism, not as an actual tuning platform for making power.


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Old 10-13-2014, 03:38 PM   #5453
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Thank you sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar

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Old 10-15-2014, 09:18 AM   #5454
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Hey guys, I wanted to introduce myself and say hi.
I had a stock '14 manual BRZ, and just installed a Stage 2 SC that I bought from a fellow forum member, Area86. The install went smoothly this weekend, and once I figured out how to flash the tune I got from Bill @ Delicious Tuning, everything started up and ran great. Looking forward to being in this community.
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:24 AM   #5455
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Hey guys, I wanted to introduce myself and say hi.
I had a stock '14 manual BRZ, and just installed a Stage 2 SC that I bought from a fellow forum member, Area86. The install went smoothly this weekend, and once I figured out how to flash the tune I got from Bill @ Delicious Tuning, everything started up and ran great. Looking forward to being in this community.
I've enjoyed every minute of my SC. If you haven't done so already, buy some supercharger oil (have it handy because you will use it) and get in the habit of checking it frequently. My blower (and many others I've read) seem to use quite a bit. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have!
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:21 AM   #5456
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I've enjoyed every minute of my SC. If you haven't done so already, buy some supercharger oil (have it handy because you will use it) and get in the habit of checking it frequently. My blower (and many others I've read) seem to use quite a bit. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have!
Great to hear, and thanks for the tip. Is there any preferred type of oil or brand? And how often do you check the level? I plan on changing it every time I do an oil change, which is usually around 4-5k miles. Sound reasonable?
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Old 10-15-2014, 11:37 AM   #5457
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Great to hear, and thanks for the tip. Is there any preferred type of oil or brand? And how often do you check the level? I plan on changing it every time I do an oil change, which is usually around 4-5k miles. Sound reasonable?
I don't believe it calls for changing the oil that frequently. I would just top it off every 4-5k miles. I use the following:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000CPI5Y6/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=MOJA G2SPWE9O&coliid=I345PE3ADDLSBW&psc=1"]Amazon.com: Red Line 58304 (75W90) Non-Limited Slip Synthetic Gear Oil - 1 Quart Bottle: Automotive[/ame]

You want to make sure it has the "NS" after 75w90.

Edit: I just checked the manual, and it states to change it every 30k miles. As mentioned above, I'd just check it and top it off every oil change. Mine is ALWAYS low. You may also want to pick up a syringe. I have this one, and it makes things much easier/cleaner:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JLJDQ0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1"]Syringe 100CC/ML: Plastic Syringe: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific[/ame]
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:02 PM   #5458
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I just checked the manual, and it states to change it every 30k miles. As mentioned above, I'd just check it and top it off every oil change. Mine is ALWAYS low.
I don't get it, where does it all go?
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Old 10-15-2014, 04:57 PM   #5459
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Thanks again TemeCal. I'll be picking up a bottle of that to have around. And good idea on the syringe.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:00 PM   #5460
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I don't get it, where does it all go?
Into the motor.
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