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Old 07-09-2013, 07:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by RedLeader View Post
I'll say it: Obviously there could be a lot going on here we don't see besides just a graph, but still. Looks like the innovate makes more torque and power everywhere under 5500rpm, only then does the vortech kit start taking off. I don't see a ~$1500 difference in performance between the two kits.

Ideally, I'd love to see a graph of the innovate kit, vortech, stock and (insert turbo kit here) all on the same car, same supporting mods (none if possible) and all from the same ECU tuner, same weather, same fuel..and so on.

In the end, this makes the Innovate kit look like its more than worth it, purely based on comparison. Just my opinion though.
Well the $1500 difference (or less depending on who you get it from) can essentially be viewed as paying for 30-40whp more than the innovate kit, which when you think about it a full exhaust setup will cost you around the same for maybe half the gains. I myself ended up going with the vortech kit because I was anxious to go FI and the innovate was still yet to be released but i'm still curious to see what the stage 2 kit will bring and exactly how far people can push the stage 1 kit. Pretty good results with the stage 1 kit so far especially for what you get with the price.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:17 PM   #30
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That graph tells me that you can't go wrong with either kit, nor a basic turbo kit. If anything it drives home the point that choosing the right kit isn't about numbers, but more about how the owner intends to use it.

Kind of fitting for this car, no?
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:21 PM   #31
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The Mini Cooper guys went around in circles about this very same thing. Bench racing is at least good exercise (eggs-are-sides, FOR BACON!).

What I saw on those dyno graphs, 260-290whp were doable on a Dynojet. The bench racing side of things involved just how much of those motors were still left stock, or weren't running E85, or had a cat, etc. 300chp ratings on these 210 units seem to be a little conservative.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:28 PM   #32
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What is the boost level for the innovate kit? Vs the Vortech kit? Would be nice to see the boost curves on both if an appropriate comparison is to be made.

But aside from that, those torque curves look terrible. Allow me to explain: on the Innovate kit, there is a dip at 2400rpm, then after 6000rpm, the curve is all over the place with dips. We all know the stock car is noisy, we've seen enough stock car dynos to see that it's not super smooth. But this level of noise should be concerning –*especially for those who only has access to 91octane fuel...

The Vortech graph has that terrible dip at 6500rpm, but is otherwise far smoother than the Innovate graph. And did you say the Innovate unit was hot after hard runs? More so than 130degree IATs would indicate? I assume these IATs people are throwing around is AFTER the blower which is what matters, and not before. If so, 130 degree IATs are hard to believe. If it's before the blower, then what's the point of pointing it out? I'm just confused.

Looking at the E85 chart, the motor is so much happier with the cooler charge. I think that this points to the severe need for an intercooler. Or I suppose you can detune it to prevent the crazy chart we've been seeing. What about 91octane folks? If this is close to ideal at 93octane, I don't even want to know what 91octane in the tank will do.

Ooof, ok; flame suit securely fastened.

budi
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:28 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLeader View Post
I'll say it: Obviously there could be a lot going on here we don't see besides just a graph, but still. Looks like the innovate makes more torque and power everywhere under 5500rpm, only then does the vortech kit start taking off. I don't see a ~$1500 difference in performance between the two kits.
Profit margin baby!
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:30 PM   #34
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I'm just interested what the ultimate result of MY plans are.

Now if only I could move forward with those plans......
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:33 PM   #35
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+ Oil Cooler = Road Course Monster
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by buditjoenawan View Post
What is the boost level for the innovate kit? Vs the Vortech kit? Would be nice to see the boost curves on both if an appropriate comparison is to be made.

But aside from that, those torque curves look terrible. Allow me to explain: on the Innovate kit, there is a dip at 2400rpm, then after 6000rpm, the curve is all over the place with dips. We all know the stock car is noisy, we've seen enough stock car dynos to see that it's not super smooth. But this level of noise should be concerning –*especially for those who only has access to 91octane fuel...

The Vortech graph has that terrible dip at 6500rpm, but is otherwise far smoother than the Innovate graph. And did you say the Innovate unit was hot after hard runs? More so than 130degree IATs would indicate? I assume these IATs people are throwing around is AFTER the blower which is what matters, and not before. If so, 130 degree IATs are hard to believe. If it's before the blower, then what's the point of pointing it out? I'm just confused.

Looking at the E85 chart, the motor is so much happier with the cooler charge. I think that this points to the severe need for an intercooler. Or I suppose you can detune it to prevent the crazy chart we've been seeing. What about 91octane folks? If this is close to ideal at 93octane, I don't even want to know what 91octane in the tank will do.

Ooof, ok; flame suit securely fastened.

budi
Water/Meth injection seems to work very well with this blower. @sw20kosh has had success with it, putting him around 240rwhp.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:51 PM   #37
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+ Oil Cooler = Road Course Monster
That's what the Robispec radiator is for.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:51 PM   #38
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So the innovate kit pulls harder on the low end and the vortech kit pulls harder on the top end.

Who would have guessed it?

Thanks moto-mike!
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:57 PM   #39
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That's what the Robispec radiator is for.
Yeah a good solution. My water temps never eclipse 200 (typically around 192-194) on the track but my oil shoots to 270. I think w/o a large intercooler (like on turbos or vortech) a stand alone oil cooler should be suffice. I'm still undecided. all i know is ive spent too much $$$ this month!
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Water/Meth injection seems to work very well with this blower. @sw20kosh has had success with it, putting him around 240rwhp.
Quote:
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That's what the Robispec radiator is for.
That's great, so we'll have to mount kits and fail safes, configure them, monitor their usage since it's going to be perpetually running and incur additional costs just to keep it running...?

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So the innovate kit pulls harder on the low end and the vortech kit pulls harder on the top end.

Who would have guessed it?
I think that's been understood for awhile now, though I don't think people wanted to accept that. They'd rather buy into terms like "Twin-Screw" and "this kit is AWESOME."

Not that it isn't.

My 2 cents!


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Old 07-09-2013, 08:03 PM   #41
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So the innovate kit pulls harder on the low end and the vortech kit pulls harder on the top end.

Who would have guessed it?
People with basic knowledge or experience with roots/twinscrew/centri probably would have figured it out....
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:08 PM   #42
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Mike, you will want a fuel pump in short order pushing it hard on corn fuel. You should not not need to touch the injectors... It should be just fine spraying pre blower if you are getting good atomization. Looks good, I think it would look even better up top on your E85 graph with a pump and a bit more tweaking.
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