What Brand of Oil is in your BRZ/FRS?

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by smbrm

Just add to the debate, VI is not really relevant if you don't understand the permanent shear stability or the HTHS of the oil.

If you take two oils with a similar HTHS viscosity and kinematic viscosity at 100C, the one with the higher VI will theoretically have less permanent shear than the lower VI oil. But you knew that.

Don't ignore Viscosity Index when selecting a lubricant

But all of this is really splitting hairs. I'm sure the FR-S/BRZ will do really well on most any SN/GF5 0W-20, but I would probably look at a higher HTHS viscosity and higher kinematic viscosity if I were driving hard (which is what the car is intended for).

-Dennis

[smbrm]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

Don't ignore Viscosity Index when selecting a lubricant

-Dennis

Your point is very relevant within the context of the article you quote, with a rather substantial caveat! The reference you quote relates to ISO viscosity grading, which is used for industrial(non engine oils) lubricants. Industrial lubricants do not use VI improvers(the exception being multigrade industrial hydraulic & industrial gear oils and some specialty multigrade industrial oils and of course, automotive gear oils have their own viscosity system and requirements).

Once you add VI improvers, oils exhibit non-Newtonian behaviour which requires different understanding and evaluations. That is why engine oils have their own unique tests for flow and performance testing.

Originally Posted by bluesubie

If you take two oils with a similar HTHS viscosity and kinematic viscosity at 100C, the one with the higher VI will theoretically have less permanent shear than the lower VI oil. But you knew that.-Dennis

I'm sorry, but unfortunately it's not that simple! Shear stability, permanent and temporary are a function of the type of VI improver(the molecule and how it relates chemically and physically to the rest of the oil in addition to the operating environment). Experience has shown that permanent and temporary shear stability do not necessarily correlate, which is why you have a different test for each. There is more than one way to formulate a high VI oil!

In fact there is more than one way to formulate.

Originally Posted by bluesubie

But all of this is really splitting hairs. I'm sure the FR-S/BRZ will do really well on most any SN/GF5 0W-20, but I would probably look at a higher HTHS viscosity and higher kinematic viscosity if I were driving hard (which is what the car is intended for).-Dennis

I would suggest that this advice pretty much sums it up! As I have indicated before the only real question is whether the manufacturer has an opinion/ recommendation regarding what(if any, considering ambient and operting conditions and remembering that SAE viscosity grades include specifications relative to ambient temperature conditions) viscosity grade might be too thick, bearing in mind that the primary recommendation is a 0W-20? I would expect only the engine manufacturer will have sufficient up front knowledge to address that question.

[bluesubie]

Originally Posted by smbrm

I'm sorry, but unfortunately it's not that simple! Shear stability, permanent and temporary are a function of the type of VI improver(the molecule and how it relates chemically and physically to the rest of the oil in addition to the operating environment). Experience has shown that permanent and temporary shear stability do not necessarily correlate, which is why you have a different test for each. There is more than one way to formulate a high VI oil!

What tests are you referring to for permanent and temporary shear? Kurt Orbahn and ???. Please share some data with us showing that a high VII does not correlate with less viscosity loss.

This is interesting reading, although I haven't read the entire article yet.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1

Bill Dimitrakis, business manager- viscosity modifiers for The Lubrizol Corp. in Wickliffe, Ohio, lists three key functions for VI improvers. He says, “VI improvers provide the thick- ening normally obtained through use of a high-viscosity basestock. This al- lows the formulation of the proper vis- cosity lubricant that has improved low temperature fluidity and retains vis- cosity better at higher temperatures.”
Dimitrakis adds, “VI improvers raise the lubricant’s viscosity index, which means that a higher-VI lubri- cant will change viscosity less as the temperature changes so it retains proper viscosity over a wider tempera- ture range.
The third function for VI improv- ers involves formulation of multigrade lubricants. Dimitrakis explains, “VI improvers allow the formulation of ‘multiviscosity’ lubricants, which meet the low-temperature viscosity require- ments of a lighter grade oil and the high-temperature viscosity of a heavi- er grade oil.”

-Dennis

[smbrm]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

What tests are you referring to for permanent and temporary shear? Kurt Orbahn and ???. Please share some data with us showing that a high VII does not correlate with less viscosity loss.

This is interesting reading, although I haven't read the entire article yet.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External...F8VHlwZT0z&t=1

Bill Dimitrakis, business manager- viscosity modifiers for The Lubrizol Corp. in Wickliffe, Ohio, lists three key functions for VI improvers. He says, “VI improvers provide the thick- ening normally obtained through use of a high-viscosity basestock. This al- lows the formulation of the proper vis- cosity lubricant that has improved low temperature fluidity and retains vis- cosity better at higher temperatures.”
Dimitrakis adds, “VI improvers raise the lubricant’s viscosity index, which means that a higher-VI lubri- cant will change viscosity less as the temperature changes so it retains proper viscosity over a wider tempera- ture range.
The third function for VI improv- ers involves formulation of multigrade lubricants. Dimitrakis explains, “VI improvers allow the formulation of ‘multiviscosity’ lubricants, which meet the low-temperature viscosity require- ments of a lighter grade oil and the high-temperature viscosity of a heavi- er grade oil.”

-Dennis

Kurt Orbahn for permanent shear and HTHS which is actually a temporary viscosity loss test.

Lubrizol stuff is usually very informative if you want to learn. They are pretty much one of the largest petroleum additive companies in the world.

The functions described for VI improvers are quite correct with the possible nuance that they alter the rate of change of kinematic viscosity with temperature, in other words they make them get thin less fast when temperature is increased. That tends to get distilled to the vernacular term thickening, hence "thickeners".

To keep it simple: Oils with VI improvers can be permanently sheared, that is they lose there viscosity over time due to the VI structure being physically degraded so that it no longer peforms its function as well.


Part of the reason that HTHS was invented was that it was found that oils using viscosity modifiers would experience thinning in big end bearing of engines where hydrodynamic shear is high and film thickness can be critical. This became more important to understand as viscosity grade recommendations were lowered to assist fuel consumption improvement. Viscosity thinning was temporary and the thinning was NOT observable in kinematic viscosity tests. In other words the viscosity change only occured under shear loads and would revert to some state of normal if the shear load was removed. HTHS is a dynamic viscosity test which mimics the temperature and shear loads associated the big end bearings in engines.

Permanent viscosity loss due to shear means that the used oil kinematic viscosities are lower after use compared to new.

Some VI improvers that had good permanent shear stability didn't necessarily have similar temporary shear stability.

The industry needed a simple way to characterize temporary shear loss to try and manage minimum film thickness as viscosities were lowered for better fuel efficiency.

I would encourage you to continue studying if you are really interested in this subject as it can be quite fascinating. However the caution I would give is that you have to be careful to not over simplify.

Engine Oils are way more complex when you get into the nitty gritty than people think. VI is generally the result of targeting other important flow characteristics and not a primary driver. That is not to say that there are no situation where VI might be of higher importance, however in the application under discussion it appears to have been isolated(because you have info) for comparison, while other properties have not been included(potentially due to lack of information or awareness of relevance).

So you see now here is another one page explanation.
Part of the reason I do not tend to engage too deeply into these discussions is they just lead to more discussion! However, sometimes over simiplifications can leave inappropriate understanding and sometimes lead to inappropriate conclusions.

Engine oil performance is the sum of many considerations. It is kind of like baking a cake. You can have many different kinds of cake and flavours and you can add sprinkles and nuts for specific effects. In the end, they are what they are and they do what they do, and you pay what you pay. But they are still all cake and they do what cake does.

Engines and consumers appreciate performance and what the product does. How and why it does it may be interesting? Saying a product must have this additive or that additive would be like the customer telling the engine manufacturer he can only purchase say valves or nuts and bolts from a specific valve or nut and bolt supplier. We leave that choice to the manufacturer because that is his job. Just like oil formulation is the formulators job. They design the product to the criteria they are given whether it be basic performance or value added product differentiation features. Sometimes it is kind of like saying I like angle food cake better than banana cake. Both are still good cake, I just appreciate one differently than another.

All certified oils(API, ILSAC, etc.) will at least meet the minimum requirements. Yes it is possible to add bells an whistles to enhance specific features. Just like the FRS/BRZ aren't the fastest cars out there, but they do handle well! So just like cars, better and best when it comes to oils can be very relative.

[bluesubie]

I didn't realize the HTHS test was considered a measurement of temporary shear, but it makes sense since it is a test measured at 150C and is a better window into how an oil will behave inside a highly stressed engine than kinematic viscosity.

Yes, I shouldn't oversimplify which is why I usually try to throw in more disclaimer type words. There's nothing wrong with one pagers and engaging more deeply, especially since this topic will continue to be beaten to death!

-Dennis

[bpracer]

Eh, I bought some Mobil 1 0w20 because it was on sale for $5 a quart and I wanted to get rid of the break-in oil early.

If I track the car I may buy some Motul or more specialized oil.

I'm old enough to remember when Mobil 1 was Mobil 1. One weight, 5w30 and it was magic for people that lived in cold climates.

We have it easy nowadays.

...unless you are trying to break in a flat tappet cam with some healthy valvesprings. (I send the cam and lifters off to be broken in on a machine in that case, PITA)

[smbrm]

Originally Posted by bluesubie

I didn't realize the HTHS test was considered a measurement of temporary shear, but it makes sense since it is a test measured at 150C and is a better window into how an oil will behave inside a highly stressed engine than kinematic viscosity.

Yes, I shouldn't oversimplify which is why I usually try to throw in more disclaimer type words. There's nothing wrong with one pagers and engaging more deeply, especially since this topic will continue to be beaten to death!

-Dennis

Yes, and HTHS is measured at a much higher shear rate than kinematic viscosity.

Agree, nothing wrong with one pagers, except perhaps the time it takes to write them. Which is neither here nor there, except that I have long lost count of many times I have had the opportunity to discuss these topics over the years!

[Sac-BRZ]

Mobil 1 0w-20 w/ Mobil 1 filter..

[mangostick]

Mobil 1, 0-20 w/factory subaru filter

The toyota dealer wanted 3 times the retail price of the subie part.. the SAME part. So I called BS and walked out. Went to my old subie dealer and got supplies for my next 3 oil changes (less oil) for price of one at toyota. Now I know why they give free maint over the first 25k and then tell you oil change intervals are 10K mi.. HA! Cheap bastards, that's only two oil changes where it should be five.

As for Mobil 1 in boxers.. I ran my 2010wrx at stageII power levels over 97K mi in just 3 years time. Mostly long highway runs but in between I wasn't always nice to that car. That's lots of oil changes at 3750 intervals. As soon as break-in was through I had the dealer start using mob1 (they stocked it) until 50K mi then I took over using oem filters and Mobil1 5-30 It never burned a drop. I checked it every few days.

My GF's 07 wrx TR is also full of Mobil1 .. that car is fully tuned with a VF30 turbo swap (330Tq/290awhp) and Her car doesn't burn any oil over the course of the interval. She runs the hell out of it. It was and is well maintained, thus.. no burning oil.

The problem I see with boxers and Mobil 1 has to do with the prior maintenance and engine condition when the owner changed over. If your rig is worn and hasn't been properly maintained then yeah its gonna burn oil.. ANY oil. Add boost and it gets worse. 5w30 is just fine in the older EJ engines and 0-20 wouldn't be spec'd for the FA/FB engines if it wasn't the oil the engineers that designed the engine intended to use. OEM's go through all kinds of testing in all kinds of conditions before they release a product. What they spec to use with that product is what you should use.

I have yet to see if the subaru 0-20 is comparable in price to mobil1 0-20. I forgot to ask while I was there since I'd already picked up my oil previous to that stop. If its comparable or less expensive to run the oem stuff then I will. If not, then mobile1 has proven itself to me in my own equipment under my own abuse and that is what I'll run. Just an opinion, but to say all boxers will burn Mobil1 is stupidity in print.

If any engine is burning oil, its worn or you're not using the correct weight.

filters are just as if not more important than the oil itself. Using aftermarket filters with lower bypass pressure is a bad Idea.. Basically the oil just pushes past the filter and circulates without ever flowing through the media. High end dirty oil is still dirty oil. Not sure what the bypass pressure is on the FA engines, but the EJ series was 21psi. If your oil filter isn't matching or exceeding that rating you're not filtering diddly squat.

Oem subaru filters are the best way to go.

[tjoy]

People really use pyramid oil?

Edited to clarify:

Amsoil relies on word-of-mouth from "distributors" to sell their oil. It's never really excelled in Consumer Reports testing over any other oil.

The one thing Amsoil did well was clarifying that you don't need to change your oil every 3k miles. People who don't realize this already assume the oil is somehow better.

[DarkSunrise]

M1 0w20 AFE. No other reason except it's readily available and I like the viscosity index and 40C numbers. TBN and HTHS numbers look fine as well.

Filter is Subaru OEM.

FWIW, I ran M1 0w40 on my STI and had no issues.

[kombatlion]

Guys need help! I change my oil at the dealer today found out they put normal toyota oil not synthetic. So i need to know where in the manual does it say that the car uses or come from factory with synthetic so I can go and make them change it.

I read every where cant find where it says synthetic

[tjoy]

Originally Posted by kombatlion

Guys need help! I change my oil at the dealer today found out they put normal toyota oil not synthetic. So i need to know where in the manual does it say that the car uses or come from factory with synthetic so I can go and make them change it.

I read every where cant find where it says synthetic

That's pretty sad. At my local Subaru dealership, the after sale guy is required to tell you that it takes 0w-20 as part of the debrief.

[XPR Small Block]

why isnt royal purple on the poll?