Why do people do wild swaps(RB, LS1), when u can just buy a Porsche, Ferrari, etc?

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by fooddude

@cf6mech: When is the next update for that/your Vorshlag Alpha swap blog/thread?

Don't know,they are a very busy shop.......I have probably done the wrong thing by bringing this swap to this forum, the powers that be do not like forum chatter at all.......and I'm most probably doing them a disservice......

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

Power steering?......the ft86 has electric steering......pump will be removed on LS .....more weight saving......

I was talking about my FD. A lot of RX-7 guys are under the mistaken impression that an LS swap doesn't add weight or change the weight distribution. Only true if you make a lot of other mods and leave off A/C and p/s (although the G8 GT p/s pump on mine only weighs about 8 lb.). Like vs like, LS V8 adds 50-100 lb. to the FD, and moves the weight 1-2% forward vs. stock. I wouldn't expect a like/like LS FR-S to do any better than that.

the car was weighed per corner before......and will be weighed after.........did you not read the build thread......it also explains how ridiculously forward Subaru placed this engine.......take the time to read it.

Where is it?

Only thing I've found is a super long thread with a non-referenced mention of 3040 lb. weight and 56.5/43.5 distribution.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=10401&page=4

I'm not against an LS V8 going into an FR-S/BRZ, fwiw. I was just pointing out that it's not going to be the same as swapping one into an S30 Z. That swap you can do with no weight gain and moving c.g. rearward with no other major mods. I do not see that happening with the FR-S/BRZ...

[fooddude]

What about a Chevy 572 big block in the twin?? ..too heavy? ..overkill? ...lol.

[fooddude]

Yummy..I wonder how much power they'd add to a stock LS3 or LS376/480
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/throttl...ody-kit-cktc03


Would the LSX454 fit, using the Vorshlag kit? ...ie: does the LSX454 use the same mounting locations/positions as standard LSx engines?

Would the LSX454 be a significant improvement over an LS3 or LS376|480/525?

I quickly ran through Drift Works little thread...and they are replacing their LS1/LS3 with a better LSX454 (still using its' current ITB's I assume). Sounds like an awesome setup for DD and getting groceries.

I wonder how much power an LSX454 with ITB's would make.




.

[ZDan]

OK, found the Vorshlag build thread:
http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8275

Our full street duty/full interior BMW swaps are usually within 20-40 pounds of the stock set-up. The iron block inline-6 engines used in E36 3 series BMWs is HEAVY and long, and the LS1 engine is a hair lighter and about 12 inches shorter, which moves the drivetrain mass rearward for better front:rear weight bias.

This is perfectly reasonable, the same thing applies to S30 Zcar swaps. Replace a fairly heavy and LONG iron-block inline 6 with a much shorter LS V8, and weight gain is minimal and weight distribution moves rearward, as the V8's center of mass is well AFT of the inline-6's.

We feel that the FR-S LSx is going to be much along the same lines, with more rearward weight bias and a gain of 40-50 pounds, at most.

Weight gain may be in the ballpark, but the weight *distribution* ramifications are totally different. The BMW is built around a LONG and heavy inline-6, as correctly noted. Swap in an engine that weighs about the same (maybe less) but with its c.g. several inches aft, and of course weight distribution moves aft.

But the FR-S is built around a very short H-4. Even if it's mounted a bit further forward than they could have mounted it, the much longer V8 will have its c.g. situated further forward in the car even if shoved as far back as possible. And while the LS engine is no heavier (maybe lighter) than a BMW iron-block I-6, it is certainly heavier than the FR-S' aluminum H-4. Significantly heavier engine, placed somewhat further forward:


There is no way c.g. is moving aft unless ballast is added to the rear. Hopefully it can come in at my previous guesstimation of 2800-2850 lb. and 56/54 weight distribution, but that might be optimistic.

Regardless, it looks like a fantastic build, and the car will be one BAMF and a HOOT to drive, no doubt! Looking forward to seeing it run

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by fooddude

Just listen to that monster

That sounds just pure hairy!
What are the chances someone wants the boxer rumble back?

[ZDan]

Not forgetting the trans at all. In fact, it is another source of concern that a "normal" T56 won't work due to putting the shifter too far *forward*.

no matter how far back we moved the engine the shifter location was still way forward of the factory shift boot and opening in the center console. The TKO600's shifter was way inside where the dash would be.

...Tremec Magnum XL 6-spd that featured a direct mounted shifter about 5.5" further back than the normal direct-shift T56.

The bulk of the T56 transmission is pretty far FORWARD in the car, to the extent that the Magnum XL trans had to be used as it has a much longer tail with the shifter scooted 5.5" aft.
For reference, the normal F-body T56 works in the FD, and if anything the shift knob is too far aft! The architecture of the FR-S/BRZ doesn't seem to allow the engine/trans to be placed very far aft relative to the driver.

In any case, it's a lot heavier than the stock trans for sure, and it is putting a lot more of its weight on the front wheels than the rears. It looks to be positioned about the same, really, so the trans is probably contributing to forward weight bias above and beyond what the engine is contributing.

[cf6mech]

We shall see @ZDan, it will all be documented. I'm betting this car will handle much better than stock with my mods and have the reliable power it needs in N/A form.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

and have the reliable power it needs in N/A form.

[pedant]
The power you want. It is an inanimate object; it doesn't need anything.
[/pedant]

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by cf6mech

We shall see @ZDan, it will all be documented. I'm betting this car will handle much better than stock with my mods and have the reliable power it needs in N/A form.

I have no doubt that with appropriate suspension mods it will handle better than stock. I don't consider 50/50 "perfect" weight distribution. It's just that with big power/weight, more rearward would be preferable, but even 56/44 is certainly doable. It will just be a little more interesting trying to put 400+ rwhp down out of lower-speed corners!

To be clear, I'm not against this swap, I'm all for it! But weight distribution will be more negatively affected relative to an LS swap into an S30 Z or BMW E36 due to the FR-S/BRZ's architecture.

Same is true for the FD. Stock engine is *very* short and compact relative to the LS, so the swap moves its c.g. forward. Stock FD is 48F/52R with fuel and driver, mine is 49.5/50.5 with me in it and 3/4-tank, and that's with some additional weight in the back of the car (40 lb. roll bar and 25 lb. battery mounted just behind the seats, ~20 lb. Accusump mounted in the spare tire well at the back of the car, bigger/heavier Cobra 8.8 diff).

I'm sure a trunk-mounted battery and probably an Accusump mounted back there as well are being considered?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by fooddude

What about a Chevy 572 big block in the twin?? ..too heavy? ..overkill? ...lol.

YES, and YES! Bigger iron block, WAY too big and heavy. Looks like more than 200 lb. over an LS3, every bit of it on the front wheels. Figure ~60F/40R weight distribution.

Originally Posted by fooddude

Would the LSX454 fit, using the Vorshlag kit? ...ie: does the LSX454 use the same mounting locations/positions as standard LSx engines?

Should fit, same external dimensions I'm pretty sure. It has an iron block, though, 100+ lb. heavier than the LS3, again, all on the front wheels. Should give ~57.5/42.5 weight distribution.

Making big power is not going to be a problem using a much lighter-weight LS3. I'd rather be making 500+hp with an LS3 hotcam with 56/44 weight distribution than 700+(!)hp and 60/40 or 600+hp and 57.5/42.5. The bigger engines will *ultimately* be faster in a straight line, but the better weight distribution of the LS3 will get it out of the hole quicker on a street car, I'd bet money.

Source for relative weights/performance figures: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...7_zz4_350.html

[cf6mech]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I have no doubt that with appropriate suspension mods it will handle better than stock. I don't consider 50/50 "perfect" weight distribution. It's just that with big power/weight, more rearward would be preferable, but even 56/44 is certainly doable. It will just be a little more interesting trying to put 400+ rwhp down out of lower-speed corners!

In actuality the 400 quoted was with a LS3 we had originally planned,....I opted for a LS1 so 350rwp is probably more realistic on a stock LS1 with the long tube headers. Some will want to go bigger but I have no plans too. The big difference will be the usable linear torque and reliability compared to FI FA20 is what I'm after, not really concerned too much what it makes on the Dyno.

[foodman]

@ZDan @cf6mech

....but, what do you guys think of adding ITBs to an LS1 or LS3???

Think it's worth it?

I'm sure it'll add more power than let's say adding ITBs to the FA or any other small 4 banger.

How much power do you think they'll add to an LSx engine?

The "marketing/generic dynos" say it adds a good +60whp, which sounds awesome. And it sounds like a quick, simple and easy way to add power without going FI and also still using the stock block ...just slap it on, bolt it on, get the maps tuned so it'll run and figure out throttle cable or electronic throttle.

I got the following link from the DriftWorks blog...looks super nice and perfectly made for the LS3, but that company is in the UK so idk if it'd be hard to get. Are there any other good reputable ITB brands/manufacturers/companies for the LSx easily found or made in the states?? Also, anyone or any shops in the states that have knowledge/experience in installing/tuning ITBs on LSx engines in the states and making them work well (electrical, electronic throttle controls, ecu tuning, etc.)??
http://www.jenvey.co.uk/home/throttl...ody-kit-cktc03

LS3 + ITBs in an FRS/BRZ would be the bizz! ...you can show rich Ferrari and Lambo owners that you have ITBs as well, hahaha

[Reaper]

Of I'm doing a v8 swap its because ive reached the lu mits of this motor. Right now I'm scraping 500whp with a stock engine. I should say WHEN I drop in an lsv8 its getting supercharged.