follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > 1st Gens: Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 / Subaru BRZ > Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum

Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum The place to start for the Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 | GT86


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-28-2014, 12:30 PM   #57
phobos512
Senior Member
 
phobos512's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Drives: 2014 FR-S 6MT Whiteout
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 950
Thanks: 234
Thanked 374 Times in 260 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Is it your daily driver? If so, what are you going to do if you get a flat? If not, what could it hurt?
I did. I carry one of these instead, mounted forward in the spare well with industrial velcro...

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Slime-70005-Safety-7-Minute-12-Volt/dp/B001DZFZPG"]Amazon.com: Slime 70005 Safety Spair 7-Minute Flat Tire Repair System 12-Volt: Automotive[/ame]

My girlfriend's car came with one (and it doesn't have runflats) so if it's good enough for her it's good enough for me.
__________________
Matt | '14 FR-S 6MT Whiteout | '13 Sonata Hybrid | '11 CBR1000RR
phobos512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2014, 02:19 PM   #58
FRiSson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Drives: FR-S MT
Location: New England
Posts: 1,081
Thanks: 118
Thanked 483 Times in 241 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Please calculate dollars spent per pound lost for each item you list.
FRiSson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2014, 03:59 PM   #59
fatoni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: miata, mazdaspeed protege, ls430
Location: socal
Posts: 4,416
Thanks: 599
Thanked 1,442 Times in 787 Posts
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
whats the goal? shaving tenths makes sense but there isnt really a lot different in daily driving imo. a lot of that stuff is not really worth the trade offs for a street car (airbags or passing smog seem more important). i cant tell the difference between a full gas tank or an empty one, with or without a passenger in daily driving so im not sure how big a deal these things will be on the street.
__________________
Drive upgrades. Don't buy them.
fatoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2014, 05:31 PM   #60
rlpaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Drives: point A to point C. Screw point B!
Location: NC
Posts: 228
Thanks: 30
Thanked 139 Times in 87 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
You may not feel each piece individually, but together it all adds up.

If you drive a stock 86 at 2750 lbs, then immediately drive one at 2500 lbs, you will notice the difference. Particularly in any kind of maneuver that involves weight transfer (think S turns or slalom).

Now ponder this. 130 lbs off 2750 doesn't sound like a lot. But that's almost 5%. Look at it this way:

170whp at 2750 lbs is roughly 16.17 lbs per hp.
170whp at 2620 lbs is roughly 15.4 lbs per hp.
170whp at 2550 lbs is 15 lbs per hp.

And this doesn't take into account the inertia advantages for breaking and cornering.

Looking at what @Anthony did, taking 150 lbs or so off the car while maintaining comfortable daily driveability shouldn't be all that hard. Might cost a few dollars, but a lot of this stuff the people on this forum were going to replace anyways (ie, wheels, tires, suspension, exhaust).
rlpaul is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rlpaul For This Useful Post:
Anthony (12-29-2014), cameronjones239 (12-29-2014)
Old 12-28-2014, 07:33 PM   #61
phobos512
Senior Member
 
phobos512's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Drives: 2014 FR-S 6MT Whiteout
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 950
Thanks: 234
Thanked 374 Times in 260 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni View Post
whats the goal? shaving tenths makes sense but there isnt really a lot different in daily driving imo. a lot of that stuff is not really worth the trade offs for a street car (airbags or passing smog seem more important). i cant tell the difference between a full gas tank or an empty one, with or without a passenger in daily driving so im not sure how big a deal these things will be on the street.
Thankfully not everyone has to worry about passing smog. Sure glad I gov't have to worry about that racket anymore.
__________________
Matt | '14 FR-S 6MT Whiteout | '13 Sonata Hybrid | '11 CBR1000RR
phobos512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2014, 08:00 PM   #62
phobos512
Senior Member
 
phobos512's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Drives: 2014 FR-S 6MT Whiteout
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 950
Thanks: 234
Thanked 374 Times in 260 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRiSson View Post
Please calculate dollars spent per pound lost for each item you list.
The seats are the largest variable...could be $500 each for seats and mounts or $2000 or more each. Let's assume cheap ones so a total of $1000 plus $125 for the Berk and $200 door the battery. So $18/lb. Figure then a $2000 wheel/tire set (weight saving, not best traction) you might get 10 lbs/corner (115 lbs, total $29/lb); brakes $2000 for 10 lbs/corner on the front (135 lbs total, $40/lb). Seat delete is $350 for 20 lbs so (unless you just remove and don't use the delete kit) you're at 155 lbs and $37/lb. Clutch and flywheel for 15 lbs at $700 (170 lbs, $38 per), one piece driveshaft ($400 for Al @ 12lbs so 182 lbs and $37 per total)... Then header, overpipe, catback, frontpipe, coilovers, LCAs...The list goes on and the dollars go up.

You have to keep in mind though, if you stay NA, the things you can do that aren't exhaust, wheels, tires and suspension are limited and get very expensive very quick. Porting and polishing, decking the cylinders to up compression, lightweighting the rotating assembly, fancy valvesprings...

Weight loss is a good thing.
__________________
Matt | '14 FR-S 6MT Whiteout | '13 Sonata Hybrid | '11 CBR1000RR
phobos512 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to phobos512 For This Useful Post:
FRiSson (12-29-2014)
Old 12-28-2014, 08:37 PM   #63
strat61caster
-
 
strat61caster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Drives: '13 FRS - STX
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 10,357
Thanks: 13,720
Thanked 9,469 Times in 4,992 Posts
Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlpaul View Post
You may not feel each piece individually, but together it all adds up.
No argument there.

The question is: adds up to what?

Can the driver tell the difference in handling/performance between full and empty tank of gas or with/without passenger? At roughly 6lbs/gallon there's a ~60lb difference between full and empty (on our cars 13 gallons vs. 3), an amount of mass that is on par with three options in the OP and nearly half his target.

Tenths of a second from a good consistent driver at an autocross or track sure, but noticeable on the occasional Sunday drive is not likely. I'm all for weight reduction don't get me wrong but a little perspective is necessary before touting superiority.

strat61caster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2014, 08:48 PM   #64
Celadrielas
Senior Member
 
Celadrielas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: 2013 Asphalt Fr-S
Location: Earth
Posts: 850
Thanks: 535
Thanked 378 Times in 248 Posts
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Ok, so let us start with some basics of physics. A) if you want to make a car stop faster, accellerate faster, or turn faster -- Put that bitch on a diet. She's fat. Plump is not pretty with any stock car that is a "track car". B) Rotational, sprung, and unsprung weights matter and will absolutely change the way a car handles and feels.

Now, I did read so I know this is not a dedicated track car. That is an important thing because that makes everyone's advise sound advise. Using the porsche example from page 1... I've been there and the struggle is real. Put a 6 puck clutch into a civic and then get stuck in traffic in southern california. You have two realizations. The first, you suddenly hate that clutch. The second, you suddenly realize you'll need to start working out your right leg more because that left calf is going to look beast. It's a real struggle.

Stating estimated numbers that are high, we have a 3000 lb car. I weigh 196 lbs @ 6'0" and I am unsprung weight. remove 130lbs of unsprung weight and I am suddly 66lbs. But the weight balance has changed depending on where you pull that weight from. If you pull it from the rear (Rear seats, jacks, spare, floor mats, muffler, ect) you suddenly have a front bias vehicle. So this is what is happening in the example on page 3 of the driver who's mountain vehicle steps out more. Your tail end is lighter so the front end wants to throw it around.

Now, let's use round numbers for power (also over stated for simplicity). Let's say you have a 3000 lb vehicle with 200 hp. You add 30 hp with your OFT. Fantastic. 15% gains in power means you're 15% faster, right? Well... no. But you will feel it and the difference will be noticed even at stock weight. Horsepower is not linear to speed. This is because air has mass. (This is assuming vehicle still takes in all fuel and air as needed and is properly tuned.) Air may feel like a bed sheet of resistance at 50 mph, But at 500 mph it's wall. Sadly more power does not always = more speed.

So here's my suggestion... Do research within yourself to figure out what YOU want from the vehicle. (I know this post is from 2013, but info is relavent for all current readers too). If you want to build a track only car, shit like a stereo, back seat, muffler, floor, ect. might not mean a damn thing to you. But if you're in a daily driver only, those luxaries suddenly seem to matter a lot.

Next, do your research on parts. What is the budget you want to spend (Determined before parts are selected) and what is the most bang for that buck that you would like to spend to achieve the goal that you would like to see with that vehicle.

It's your vehicle, and there are different strokes for different folks. So do you as only you do and drive the vehicle that makes your heart and wallet happy. If you want to keep the current weight balance front to back, remove 15 lbs from the front and rear at the same time. But remember to try and keep it balanced left to right in the same way.
__________________
"That's the beatiful thing about life! No matter how filthy something gets, you can always clean it right up."
Celadrielas is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Celadrielas For This Useful Post:
OilFieldTrash (12-28-2014), SuperTom (06-12-2018)
Old 12-28-2014, 10:03 PM   #65
DarkSunrise
Senior Member
 
DarkSunrise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,794
Thanks: 2,162
Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennisfreak View Post
Tinkering with the idea of removing the spare tire and jack kit.


Just wondering if anyone who has done that can tell me if it was noticeable or if they felt it was really a wasted effort and put it back in.
I do this at the track. You can tell the rear end is a bit lighter when pushing the car hard in corners and especially if you drop below a half tank of gas. But I highly doubt you'll notice a difference on the street.

FWIW I don't pull the spare and tools on the street.
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."

2022 BRZ Build
2013 FR-S Build
DarkSunrise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2014, 11:13 PM   #66
Dake
Senior Member
 
Dake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: FR-S
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,056
Thanks: 464
Thanked 819 Times in 414 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
This is an interesting thread.

Personally, mine is my DD and I do a lot of highway commuting with an AutoX once a month or so. On the HW at 70-75 the car is approaching too loud for long rides. You have to really crank the stereo and it definitely adds to the fatigue level. Now, I've done 15.5 hour road trips and it's still one of the most comfortable cars I've ever owned, but removing the back seats and seat backs sounds like a recipe for hearing loss. Engine noise is fun; wind and tire noise and trunk squeaking and rattling sucks. I absolutely recommend just driving around with your rear seat backs down for a week or two to make sure it won't bug you in the long term.

It's been mentioned in passing now too, but removing weight from the rear will absolutely change the dynamics. The twins are already front biased by 3% and if you go pulling out seats and spares and whatnot, you're going to move that further forward. The battery is already behind the front wheel, so lightening that might help, but there's a chance you'll increase both your understeer AND oversteer.

Heck, I'd be more tempted to move the factory battery to the spare tire well (ok, maybe something a little lighter) - that'd probably put you right at 50/50.
Dake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2014, 10:48 AM   #67
tennisfreak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2018 BMW M240i
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,768
Thanks: 692
Thanked 917 Times in 538 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni View Post
whats the goal? shaving tenths makes sense but there isnt really a lot different in daily driving imo. a lot of that stuff is not really worth the trade offs for a street car (airbags or passing smog seem more important). i cant tell the difference between a full gas tank or an empty one, with or without a passenger in daily driving so im not sure how big a deal these things will be on the street.
Funny you should mention a full and empty gas tank because that was my thought process on the spare tire.
I, personally, can feel a noticeable difference between a full and empty gas tank. I love the way my car feels when it is almost empty on gas. It feel sprightlier.
My thought was removing the spare tire kit would make it feel like an empty gas tank even when full!
tennisfreak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2014, 11:36 AM   #68
nikitopo
Senior Member
 
nikitopo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Drives: '15 BRZ RA
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,787
Thanks: 2,416
Thanked 1,943 Times in 1,260 Posts
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Big weight reductions should be followed with changes in the suspension (coil springs).
nikitopo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2014, 04:31 PM   #69
fatoni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Drives: miata, mazdaspeed protege, ls430
Location: socal
Posts: 4,416
Thanks: 599
Thanked 1,442 Times in 787 Posts
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo View Post
Big weight reductions should be followed with changes in the suspension (coil springs).
Maybe,but probably not. People aren't adding weight when they change spring rate.
__________________
Drive upgrades. Don't buy them.
fatoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2014, 06:10 PM   #70
cameronjones239
Senior Member
 
cameronjones239's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Drives: 2015 Subaru BRZ Series Blue
Location: Missouri
Posts: 209
Thanks: 81
Thanked 64 Times in 53 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlpaul View Post
You may not feel each piece individually, but together it all adds up.

If you drive a stock 86 at 2750 lbs, then immediately drive one at 2500 lbs, you will notice the difference. Particularly in any kind of maneuver that involves weight transfer (think S turns or slalom).

Now ponder this. 130 lbs off 2750 doesn't sound like a lot. But that's almost 5%. Look at it this way:

170whp at 2750 lbs is roughly 16.17 lbs per hp.
170whp at 2620 lbs is roughly 15.4 lbs per hp.
170whp at 2550 lbs is 15 lbs per hp.

And this doesn't take into account the inertia advantages for breaking and cornering.

Looking at what @Anthony did, taking 150 lbs or so off the car while maintaining comfortable daily driveability shouldn't be all that hard. Might cost a few dollars, but a lot of this stuff the people on this forum were going to replace anyways (ie, wheels, tires, suspension, exhaust).
2750lbs stock weight + 150lbs driver = 170hp/2900lbs = 17.058
2612 + 150lbs = 170hp/2762lbs = 16.247

2900/16.247 = 178.449
So taking out 130lbs of the 2900lbs car, we would have to add 8.449hp to get the same thing without removing the weight. Correct me if I'm wrong.
In terms of seat of the pants feel, it would be equivalent to adding a drop in filter, maybe cai at most in my opinion. I feel the difference removing the spare tire, removing a passenger I can definitely feel.
cameronjones239 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Official Component Weights & Weight Reduction Thread JRitt Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting 379 04-16-2023 04:15 PM
Weight reduction in the front only KevinBRZ Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 16 04-12-2013 12:25 AM
the weight reduction of FR - S? raiden8383 Scion FR-S / Toyota 86 GT86 General Forum 22 11-30-2012 06:10 PM
Official Weight Reduction Thread - Sort of... merlin2111 Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 77 10-07-2012 05:09 PM
Spirited 86 driving in Korea ESBjiujitsu FR-S & 86 Photos, Videos, Wallpapers, Gallery Forum 3 05-22-2012 02:47 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.