next gen 86 reportedly coming

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by Enkrow

I doubt that they would build a second gen twin on a 4-door platform. If they don't make another new chassis, I think it's more likely that they would build it on the same chassis as before, kind of like the S2K AP1/AP2.

Ap1/ap2 was a minor engine tweak/facelift. They already did that.

[Enkrow]

Originally Posted by cyde01

Ap1/ap2 was a minor engine tweak/facelift. They already did that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the update for the S2k much more substantial than our current facelift?



Specifically, I've heard the AP1/AP2 motors are pretty different to drive, but I haven't driven them so I wouldn't know.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by Enkrow

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the update for the S2k much more substantial than our current facelift?



Specifically, I've heard the AP1/AP2 motors are pretty different to drive, but I haven't driven them so I wouldn't know.

It was a really minor engine tweak, albeit a little more of a change than the zenki and kouki 86. The ap2 got a slightly longer stroke, which resulted in a lower redline, less peak power but a better torque curve in the mid range. The difference was small, like 10 lbft if i recall.

[Enkrow]

Originally Posted by cyde01

It was a really minor engine tweak, albeit a little more of a change than the zenki and kouki 86. The ap2 got a slightly longer stroke, which resulted in a lower redline, less peak power but a better torque curve in the mid range. The difference was small, like 10 lbft if i recall.

Ah, I had always had the impression that it was a larger change than that. I guess the AP1/AP2 really aren't so different, then.

[chaoskaze]

difference is small but it's a brand new stroke out motor with different cam thou.

That counts as a new car for petrolheads in my book.

if you live in japan or countries with endless tiny backroads......... i don't think Ap2 is really a upgrade....

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by Enkrow

Ah, I had always had the impression that it was a larger change than that. I guess the AP1/AP2 really aren't so different, then.

There was a suspension change also

[Aipex8]

Originally Posted by Enkrow

Ah, I had always had the impression that it was a larger change than that. I guess the AP1/AP2 really aren't so different, then.

Also, if an updated model uses any of the same body panels it's considered a mid-cycle refresh (facelift) regardless of how substantial any engine updates are. It doesn't have to have a new chassis to be a "next generation," but it does have to have all new body panels so the general public sees it as a "new" model.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by TommyW

There was a suspension change also

also got 17s as opposed to 16s, also got a much wider stagger set up in the rear. still, even with all that and a displacement increase and longer stroke, it'd be considered a minor refresh as opposed to a fully new model.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by cyde01

It was a really minor engine tweak, albeit a little more of a change than the zenki and kouki 86. The ap2 got a slightly longer stroke, which resulted in a lower redline, less peak power but a better torque curve in the mid range. The difference was small, like 10 lbft if i recall.

The difference is far from small. The driving experience is entirely different. The numbers Honda quotes also don’t reflect what they show on dynos. The revisions to the Twins can’t be compared to the AP1/2.

[cyde01]

Originally Posted by ermax

The difference is far from small. The driving experience is entirely different. The numbers Honda quotes also don’t reflect what they show on dynos. The revisions to the Twins can’t be compared to the AP1/2.

Alright well i was going off the manufacturer's numbers as i've never seen dynos and i've only ever driven an ap2. I remember f20c vs f22c was perpetually debated in the s2k community. Still, the f22c is also very much a high revvy engine that doesn't wake up till around 4500rpm so i have a hard time imagine it being that huge of a difference. Not saying it's not there, i know it has a different character unlike the twins' measley intake changes, but it's still a similar engine. But once again, i've owned an ap2 but never driven an ap1. regardless, neither is a full model change.

[FRSBRZGT86FAN]

Originally Posted by Enkrow

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the update for the S2k much more substantial than our current facelift?



Specifically, I've heard the AP1/AP2 motors are pretty different to drive, but I haven't driven them so I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by cyde01

It was a really minor engine tweak, albeit a little more of a change than the zenki and kouki 86. The ap2 got a slightly longer stroke, which resulted in a lower redline, less peak power but a better torque curve in the mid range. The difference was small, like 10 lbft if i recall.

Originally Posted by Enkrow

Ah, I had always had the impression that it was a larger change than that. I guess the AP1/AP2 really aren't so different, then.

Originally Posted by TommyW

There was a suspension change also

Suspension was definitely different, I've driven both generations pretty aggressively and there is a distinct difference in how "playful" and eager to slide the AP1 as compared to the AP2

[nikitopo]

What people perceive as a model change? An entirely different car that is far away from the original model? Subaru is pretty much conservative in this aspect and I wouldn't expect too many differences. Given the current issue in Japan with the big difference in catalog vs. real fuel consumption (i.e. issue of turbos), the bigger chance is to get a small increase in engine displacement. The downsized turbo engine is still not there and it will wait to be combined in a hybrid solution. So, I wouldn't expect any massive increase in torque or anything similar with a NA engine. Same should hold with the exterior that should not differentiate too much. The only thing they could revise entirely is the interior.

[bkharmony]

Originally Posted by JD001

I think the guys who wrote the above list also drew the following.... Definitely "emotion-evoking".. and probably smoking something strange at the time..

Looks like why the Civic should've been.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by cyde01

Alright well i was going off the manufacturer's numbers as i've never seen dynos and i've only ever driven an ap2. I remember f20c vs f22c was perpetually debated in the s2k community. Still, the f22c is also very much a high revvy engine that doesn't wake up till around 4500rpm so i have a hard time imagine it being that huge of a difference. Not saying it's not there, i know it has a different character unlike the twins' measley intake changes, but it's still a similar engine. But once again, i've owned an ap2 but never driven an ap1. regardless, neither is a full model change.

Having driven both I can tell you it’s a big difference. The AP1 feels like a B16A until 6k. The AP2 is way more tolerable at low RPMs. Sure it’s not a full model change but there are more signification changes than have been made to the Twins. I’ve never driven a 2017+ Twin but I suspect you can’t even tell it has 5 extra HP. Drive an AP1 and AP2 back to back and it’s impossible to not tell the difference.