Failure After J02 Recall - Discussion Threads

[maslin]

Originally Posted by ybotspawn

I spoke with a friend who is Lead Tech at a local Toyota dealership. He told me that his team is watching all of these and just smacking their heads. He told me the problem is definitely that the toyota techs in general don't have the kind of experience to do this work. So far his team hasn't messed up any of these, but the techs have lost money on every one they've performed successfully. Anyone who has worked in a dealership, as a tech, knows that warranty claims pay the tech differently than other claims. If the tech's take more than the allotted time, they start to lose money. Makes me wonder if Toyota allotted enough times to the techs, given their inexperience, with this level of work. The really disappointing thing he pointed out was that many of the techs messing up these jobs are senior guys making really good money.

Not true at all. All work pay flat rate. Warranty, internal, customer pay, it’s all the same. The same job will pay more if it is customer pay vs warranty, but the system is the same.

Recalls are notorious for cutting the time payed on a warranty job. While replacing valve springs normally under warranty could pay 18 hours, now that’s it’s a recall they pay 12.

That sucks, but that’s the game. You lose money doing a set of valve springs, then you make 6 hours replacing ball joints in 45 minutes.

I’ve made 200 hours in two weeks, I’ve made 13 hours in two weeks. You have to play the game.

[ybotspawn]

Originally Posted by maslin

Not true at all. All work pay flat rate. Warranty, internal, customer pay, it’s all the same. The same job will pay more if it is customer pay vs warranty, but the system is the same.

Recalls are notorious for cutting the time payed on a warranty job. While replacing valve springs normally under warranty could pay 18 hours, now that’s it’s a recall they pay 12.

That sucks, but that’s the game. You lose money doing a set of valve springs, then you make 6 hours replacing ball joints in 45 minutes.

I’ve made 200 hours in two weeks, I’ve made 13 hours in two weeks. You have to play the game.

Right, like I said, job pays differently, if I wasn't clear about that apologies. Thats my friends point, though. The hours being allotted are probably few enough that techs are rushing....

[maslin]

Originally Posted by ybotspawn

Right, like I said, job pays differently, if I wasn't clear about that apologies. Thats my friends point, though. The hours being allotted are probably few enough that techs are rushing....

Agreed. The real way recalls stick you on the pay is by giving one single code for the entire job. Replace valve spring, 12.0 hours.

Under a normal warranty repair you would get paid to remove the engine, drain/fill the ac, remove the cams, replace the springs, change the oil, etc etc etc. It adds up that way, and some creative writing skills can gain several hours on a big job.

Recalls remove the "game" from flat rate. You do the work, it pays what it pays. Generally you break even or make a little bit. Sometimes you don't. It takes experience to move past that and do your job without rushing and being pissed off that you're losing money. You'll make it up next week.

[srt4evah]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Everybody is so focused on the really scary pictures of the pickup screen that they are ignoring another point of failure. When the engine is apart or when new sealant is applied there are several points where it can be directly introduced to the oil system. These points can be up or downstream of the filter and pick up tube. Any sealant that gets in there may never even make it to the screen or filter. It is not a safe assumption to think that all of the sealant passes through the pan where it can be captured.


The picture of sealant in the bearing oil channel and the written instruction specifically stating it can get there has been totally disregarded by many normally smart guys because they just can not get away from the mindset that that it will be captured by the filtering system. The system can not capture what never makes it to it. The updated instructions (which I can't find right now) make it very clear that the issue can either be old sealant that is not cleaned up properly or new that can cover or break off in the channels. As the picture below shows one of the most restricted passages are in the bearings. Only takes a small piece to be introduced to the system beyond the filter or pickup to float around in there and eventually block a bearing channel. This is why the most frequent failure we have seen documented was one individual bearing.


Personally I can't even blame the techs for the new sealant part of the issue. It is poor engineering that uses a flowing sealant so close to vulnerable oil passages. Just a tad too much or off by a couple of millimeters and bang a bearing is spun! The poor cleanup resulting in huge amounts of material blocking take ups is all on them though.


I sincerely apologize for coming across as preachy or self righteous on this subject but for 2 years I have been saying this was the problem with spun bearings right from the factory and have always been shouted down as a fool since it was "Impossible". The updated instructions and documents provided by Toyota/Subaru show that not only is it not "impossible" but under the right (wrong?) conditions it is actually probable.


I will now put my soapbox away and let the angry mod tell me yet again that I am wrong.

My kingdom for a freaking gasket!!!

[Open Loop]

Does anyone have thoughts on how we should expect the gray gasket material to look on the outside of the valve cover following this job getting completed? I just got mine back from the dealer, and it looks like a lot of gasket material on the outside. It is giving me some reason for concern.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Open Loop

Does anyone have thoughts on how we should expect the gray gasket material to look on the outside of the valve cover following this job getting completed? I just got mine back from the dealer, and it looks like a lot of gasket material on the outside. It is giving me some reason for concern.

Going by the bead size and the location I would expect to see a fair bit on the outside. Better out than in!


https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/201...8V772-0191.pdf

[ermax]

Originally Posted by ybotspawn

Right, like I said, job pays differently, if I wasn't clear about that apologies. Thats my friends point, though. The hours being allotted are probably few enough that techs are rushing....

Having rebuilt my own engine I can say that 12.5 hours for this job is really tight. This isn’t my profession and it was my first time tearing an FA20 apart but 12.5 still sounds extremely tight. I have no doubt that they rushing this job. I also have no doubt that as time passes they will get better at this job and the problems will diminish. Even then I think I’ll skip this recall.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by maslin

Agreed. The real way recalls stick you on the pay is by giving one single code for the entire job. Replace valve spring, 12.0 hours.



Under a normal warranty repair you would get paid to remove the engine, drain/fill the ac, remove the cams, replace the springs, change the oil, etc etc etc. It adds up that way, and some creative writing skills can gain several hours on a big job.



Recalls remove the "game" from flat rate. You do the work, it pays what it pays. Generally you break even or make a little bit. Sometimes you don't. It takes experience to move past that and do your job without rushing and being pissed off that you're losing money. You'll make it up next week.

A friend of mine was a tech and said there is a lot of politics too with regards to who gets what job. Some jobs are allotted way more time than needed and you can bank a lot of time on them but if no one likes you then you get the shit jobs that you break even on all the time.

[ka-t_240]

Originally Posted by ermax

Having rebuilt my own engine I can say that 12.5 hours for this job is really tight. This isn’t my profession and it was my first time tearing an FA20 apart but 12.5 still sounds extremely tight. I have no doubt that they rushing this job. I also have no doubt that as time passes they will get better at this job and the problems will diminish. Even then I think I’ll skip this recall.

We see this on the big repairs/recalls at my work. The first couple stores/techs end up eating a ton of ours. As they do 2-3 they get closed to job code time, then 10+ they are under. They find the right tools to get stuff done, and know the issues in advance. In some cases, we will have the same tech do every one for the entire store/travel to other locations to do them at locations that only have 2-3 in their AOR(cheaper for the other store to pay the techs travel, hotel, etc than eating 100+ hours)

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Open Loop

Does anyone have thoughts on how we should expect the gray gasket material to look on the outside of the valve cover following this job getting completed? I just got mine back from the dealer, and it looks like a lot of gasket material on the outside. It is giving me some reason for concern.

What Tcoat said. There is a grove around the cover and the bead needs to be on the top of this grove. If it is inside the grove (which photos around here have been showing) then most of the packing would push inside which is bad. I think I would be more concerned if I didn’t see any packing on the outside.

[maslin]

Originally Posted by ermax

A friend of mine was a tech and said there is a lot of politics too with regards to who gets what job. Some jobs are allotted way more time than needed and you can bank a lot of time on them but if no one likes you then you get the shit jobs that you break even on all the time.

Very much so. Especially in a shop with a dispatcher, they determine who gets what. We have a basket, everything goes in the basket. You need work, you take the top RO. Or that's how it's supposed to work.

Lots of games, this whole profession is a game. You can grab any RO from the stack, no one is really watching. Or know where the next good RO is, sandbag on the job you have, then magically be done as soon as the good RO comes up. It's all a gamble, grab the 12 hour recall, upsell some work while your there and be busy for a few days, or take that 4 hour service, upsell nothing, and be done in 2 hours.

Originally Posted by ka-t_240

We see this on the big repairs/recalls at my work. The first couple stores/techs end up eating a ton of ours. As they do 2-3 they get closed to job code time, then 10+ they are under. They find the right tools to get stuff done, and know the issues in advance. In some cases, we will have the same tech do every one for the entire store/travel to other locations to do them at locations that only have 2-3 in their AOR(cheaper for the other store to pay the techs travel, hotel, etc than eating 100+ hours)

When m272 engines were eating balance shaft gears (2006-2008ish) we had one guy in the shop do them all. They would schedule 3 or 4 in a row, that's all he did for a week straight. By the second or third one you don't need to look up the timing marks, or walk to your toolbox 50 times for each wrench.

[ybotspawn]

My friend at the Toyota dealership says they have quoted just shy of 13 hours (makes sense with what everyone else seems to be quoting here). He also says you need at least 4-6 hours just to remove the old sealant. Thats not including the other parts of the job. Sounds like Toyota set these techs up to fail. Anyone got any estimates of what Subaru stated for the same job, just for comparison sake?

[maslin]

Originally Posted by ybotspawn

My friend at the Toyota dealership says they have quoted just shy of 13 hours (makes sense with what everyone else seems to be quoting here). He also says you need at least 4-6 hours just to remove the old sealant. Thats not including the other parts of the job. Sounds like Toyota set these techs up to fail. Anyone got any estimates of what Subaru stated for the same job, just for comparison sake?

They didn't set them up to fail. They set them up to not make any money doing the job. If you can turn 60 hours a week why does it matter that you lost time on one or two jobs? If the shops were taking care of their techs they would let them punch on to available time once they hit the 12 hour warranty pay. At least make some money while you're losing your ass. It's pretty clear it isn't the tech's fault they can't hit the time, 12 hours seems really really low.

You win some you lose some. Young guys want to win on every single job and throw a fit when they can't. We have hourly guys that get pissed over it, makes zero sense to me. I've made 400 hours in a month, one time. I'm not mad I don't make that every month, I just smile and bust ass to make the next dollar.

[humfrz]

Maybe the techs should be salaried - ??


humfrz