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BRZ First-Gen (2012+) -- General Topics All discussions about the first-gen Subaru BRZ coupe


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Old 11-14-2014, 05:47 AM   #29
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I bought this car because of the balance, steering, RWD - basically just the "feel" which I love so much. I'm most likely never going to drive it fast enough to get into trouble, or show off and do anything stupid. And I get 33MPG on average, so I'm not dropping the clutch and making hot rod starts off the line. But even at that, just pulling out of my parking space at work while turning, and feeling the rumble and hesitation of the rear while the computer kicks in is annoying.
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Old 11-14-2014, 08:16 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by stugray View Post
Look at it another way:
I had my car all day long on the track for a HPDE.
My teenage son & I shared sessions with a professional driving instructor.

I never turned off ANY of the systems
Yet - we still drove the crap out of the car and had a ton of fun doing it.
learned more than a year's worth of driving on the street under any circumstances.
rarely engaged the systems

And under the small number of cases where it DID step in, it saved us from a spin that would have meant a stop in the hot pit for a tech inspect..

So - Anyone who says that they drive conservatively on the street and keep getting stepped on by the nannies should get their system checked out.
No offense, but one will never be able to properly learn how a car reacts once pushed past the limits because the nannies prevent it from even reaching the limit. You'll never know what the limits are until you've gone beyond it. I've autocrossed my stock BRZ enough times to know exactly how the car is going to react at the limit under normal autocrossing conditions. The twins are so easy to drive at 10/10s. Much easier than my old NC MX5 was to drive at 10/10s.

I'm all for nannies. I think they're great tools that may mitigate accidents under normal, everyday driving. However, they should be completely off(pedal danced) if one truly wishes to learn this car(under controlled conditions of course).

I really like the fact the twins allow full disengagement of all nannies with the pedal dance. Hard to find that in newer cars.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:15 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by carma143 View Post
Even when you press the buttons so TC/VSC is "off" it's not turned completely off. Unless the "pedal dance" or the correct fuse is taken out, you're still being nannied just a bit. If you are about to spin out the computer will still intervene (from what I've read online through various forums discussions).
Just to be clear, the 5-second TC press will definitely allow you to spin. I've spun the car numerous times drifting on a wet skidpad.

The pedal dance only makes a difference in two scenarios from what I understand:

1) If you effectively lift a rear wheel under power (it will try to brake the free wheel).
2) Trail-braking using staggered pads.

For all other intents and purposes, the 5-second TC press is effectively like having the nannies full off. I just wanted to clarify that, as I don't want people to think an invisible hand will save them from spinning with the 5-second TC press.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:39 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DarkSunrise View Post
Just to be clear, the 5-second TC press will definitely allow you to spin. I've spun the car numerous times drifting on a wet skidpad.

The pedal dance only makes a difference in two scenarios from what I understand:

1) If you effectively lift a rear wheel under power (it will try to brake the free wheel).
2) Trail-braking using staggered pads.

For all other intents and purposes, the 5-second TC press is effectively like having the nannies full off. I just wanted to clarify that, as I don't want people to think an invisible hand will save them from spinning with the 5-second TC press.
I have had the TC/VSC turn back on in the snow when my ass stepped out just about 10 degrees. I knew better than lifting too abruptly so I was gathering it back up very carefully when the TC/VSC lights came on, and the throttle died. This caused a snap-in oversteer that spun me into oncoming traffic (the opposite direction of the original step out).
This was after holding the buttons for the 5-count and verifying lights came on.
So in some situations, you can do donuts, and other situations, it will intervene.

I wish we knew the real entry criteria for TC/VSC intervention.
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Old 11-14-2014, 10:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by stugray View Post
I have had the TC/VSC turn back on in the snow when my ass stepped out just about 10 degrees. I knew better than lifting too abruptly so I was gathering it back up very carefully when the TC/VSC lights came on, and the throttle died. This caused a snap-in oversteer that spun me into oncoming traffic (the opposite direction of the original step out).
This was after holding the buttons for the 5-count and verifying lights came on.
So in some situations, you can do donuts, and other situations, it will intervene.

I wish we knew the real entry criteria for TC/VSC intervention.
Scary! I've heard of that happening, but only when the 5-second TC press was done with the car in motion. Were you fully stopped when you disabled it?
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Old 11-14-2014, 11:24 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by stugray View Post
I have had the TC/VSC turn back on in the snow when my ass stepped out just about 10 degrees. I knew better than lifting too abruptly so I was gathering it back up very carefully when the TC/VSC lights came on, and the throttle died. This caused a snap-in oversteer that spun me into oncoming traffic (the opposite direction of the original step out).
This was after holding the buttons for the 5-count and verifying lights came on.
So in some situations, you can do donuts, and other situations, it will intervene.

I wish we knew the real entry criteria for TC/VSC intervention.
I can confirm this happens as I was in a very similar situation, but with rain. This happened with the trac control button held down for 5 seconds at a stop when starting the car. Trying to get on the freeway, I took the turn to get to the on ramp a bit too fast and the rear kicked out. I made the proper inputs and started recovering but the nannies kicked, cutting off the throttle, right before I straightened out and caused snap oversteer, making me spin. I'm just glad this happened late at night on a weekday with no one around.
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Old 11-14-2014, 12:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itzed View Post
I bought this car because of the balance, steering, RWD - basically just the "feel" which I love so much. I'm most likely never going to drive it fast enough to get into trouble, or show off and do anything stupid. And I get 33MPG on average, so I'm not dropping the clutch and making hot rod starts off the line. But even at that, just pulling out of my parking space at work while turning, and feeling the rumble and hesitation of the rear while the computer kicks in is annoying.
That rumble you feel is not the nannies, it's the Torsen diff. Enjoy it because racecar!
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:12 PM   #36
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I've spun the car numerous times drifting on a wet skidpad.
I've done the same.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:18 PM   #37
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Just to be clear, the 5-second TC press will definitely allow you to spin. I've spun the car numerous times drifting on a wet skidpad.
+2 I did it within the first week of driving it but not in a safe environment. A few spotty wet patches. Hadn't driven a RWD for 14 years. Really STUPID, and incredibly lucky.

Don't fuck around on the street. It WILL bite you.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:19 PM   #38
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+2 I did it within the first week of driving it but not in a safe environment. A few spotty wet patches. Hadn't driven a RWD for 14 years. Really STUPID, and incredibly lucky.

Don't fuck around on the street. It WILL bite you.
So would the pedal dance have made a difference? Because then the throttle wouldn't have been cut off right?
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:44 PM   #39
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So would the pedal dance have made a difference? Because then the throttle wouldn't have been cut off right?
No difference. Nannies were off per 5-second push. I got myself into a classic over-correction disaster. By the third swing I knew it was game over. Again - incredibly stupid.
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Old 11-14-2014, 01:46 PM   #40
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So would the pedal dance have made a difference? Because then the throttle wouldn't have been cut off right?
I haven't experienced any throttle cuts on track when countersteering & recovering slides w/5 second TC off. If it had cut throttle, I'm pretty sure I would have known (i.e., the car would have spun).

I also don't remember any throttle cuts on the wet skidpad.

And that makes sense as the pedal dance should affect electronic brake force distribution (EBD).
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Old 11-14-2014, 02:25 PM   #41
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Traction control limits all wheelspin, but the reality of it is maximum acceleration is obtained with wheelspin. In the dry typically around 8-15% wheelspin will offer maximum acceleration, in the wet 2-5% and on ice 0-.5%. This most certainly kills your ability to corner but driving is a mix of both corner and straight line acceleration. Can you accelerate faster with traction control off? -Absolutely, and in certain situations this could be life saving. I'm not saying you should have wheelspin all the time but the fact of the matter is in a situation where you need it, traction control being on won't allow it. If you're not capable of driving your car to the limit then please keep your TC on, but saying everyone should always keep it on when driving on the road is BS.

Snow on the other hand requires a much, much higher amount of wheelspin with snow tires. Upwards of 30-40% wheelspin can offer you the most grip to move forward in deep snow. Most people recommend turning traction control off in the snow, ever wonder why?

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Old 11-14-2014, 05:26 PM   #42
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@stugray Thanks for making all these grand assumptions and how they might relate to you and your teenage son. Perhaps I should clarify, turning TC off makes smooth, slow driving 0-30 easier and more relaxing feeling, and keeps the engine feeling peppy because it doesn't cut throttle.

And there's other ways to know you're about to spin out through a corner, you can feel the tires loading up and can sense the countdown to the tires losing grip and take action before it happens.

I've driven autoX using all the different TC/VSC sport settings. The first run without TC on I learned very quickly how much of a crutch the TC was allowing me to just throw it into corners mashing the throttle. Tried doing the same thing and resulted in a quick spinout. Leaning about the way the tires loaded up in a corner is essential to knowing how to safely drive the car.

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