New rumor: 1.6-liter turbocharged engine one year after initial introduction

[Dimman]

http://forums.evolutionm.net/sale-en...as-system.html

[82mm 4g63]

I for one have no interest in an ALS or SAS in any of my FI cars as it severely reduces the durability of the turbo and exhast manifold.

The OEM SAS on the Evo's are highly nerfed versions of the true ALS systems, the main bottleneck being the narrow diameter on the banjo bolts that can be bored out to increase air flow.

"It's the "Secondary Air-injection System." It's that squiggly alloy tube running from a solenoid valve
connected to the tube near the intake plenum to two ports at the top of the exhaust manifold.
It's also the basis for the RalliArt Anti-lag System.
In rallying it's used to reduce turbo lag between gear-shifts.
I don't know how much residual benefit is derived from it without full-blown Anti-lag activated in the ECU.
It also "leans out the exhaust gas for emissions purposes" as you said.
So you can delete it if you want... but why worry?"

[82mm 4g63]

The Evo 1-3 didn't have ALS or SAS, but the Evo 2-3 had Post Combustion Control System, which was the precursor to the SAS in the later Evo's.

[Edit] This is a pretty cool read. Toyota had the Toyota Combustion Control System, pretty neat.

http://www.oocities.org/hflancia/bangbangALSsystem.htm

How the turbo Anti-Lag System works

Bang-bang (also known as ALS which stands for Anti-Lag System) is an engine management technique that allows to minimize the turbo lag time.

As you might be aware of, turbochargers display what is known as lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. The duration of a turbocharger's lag depends on many factors among which its inertia, airflow efficiency, back pressure, etc. The problem is partly dealt with by fitting a turbo dump valve, which acts each time the driver lifts his foot from the throttle. The dump valve will evacuate the pressurized air coming out of the turbocharger while the inlet manifold is closed thus allowing not to stall the turbine and avoiding possible damage to its bearings. In racecars it is very common to fit oversized turbochargers in order to be able to produce enough boost pressure and assure a sufficient engine output. Big turbochargers display significant amounts of lag due to their increased inertia. In these cases the dump valve is insufficient to allow the turbocharger not to loose too much speed when the driver lifts off. Additionally rally cars hold a turbo restrictor, which is regulated by the FIA. One of the restrictor' effects is to increase lag time. This is why in racing cars, and most specifically in rally cars where torque and engine availability are critical factors, most applications use anti-lag systems.

During lag time the engine is much less responsive and its output well below nominal. To counter the effect of turbo lag time drivers used to anticipate the engine's reactions by accelerating well before they would have in a non-turbo car. Others have used a technique, introduced by the German driver Walter Röhrl, known as "left foot braking" where the driver uses his left foot to brake the car while his right foot accelerates to keep the turbocharger in optimal load. ALS was a simple idea but relatively difficult to implement. To the best of my knowledge Toyota Team Europe were the first to use it in racing (Toyota's implementation is known as Toyota Combustion Control System while Mitsubishi call the system Post Combustion Control System).

How ALS works

While the ignition timing is altered with 40° or more of delay the intake air and fuel supply is made richer when the driver lifts his foot from the gas pedal. This results in air and/fuel mixture that keeps getting in the combustion chambers when the driver no longer accelerates. The ignition being delayed, the air/fuel mixture reaches the exhaust tubes mostly unburned. The exhaust temperature being extremely high the unburned fuel explodes at the contact of the exhaust tubes. Luckily the turbo sits right there and the explosion keeps it turning (otherwise it would slow down since its intake, the exhaust gases, is cut-off). The effect is vastly lower response times with some downsides:

A quick rise of the turbo's temperature (which jumps from ~800°C to the 1100°C+ region) whenever the system is activated
A huge stress on the exhaust manifold and pipes (mounted on a street car a bang-bang system would destroy the exhaust system within 50-100 km)
The explosions which occur in the exhaust tubes generate important flames which, sometimes, can be seen at the end of the exhaust tube
The the bang-bang system got its name from the loud explosion noises one hears whenever the driver lifts his right foot. Depending on the implementation, ALS systems are more or less aggressive. While the systems mounted in Toyota and Mitsubishi racing cars are relatively smooth and noiseless those fitted in Ford and Subaru cars are much more noisy. Most racing implementations have user selectable anti-lag settings depending on the terrain, usually three settings can be selected by the driver going from moderate to very aggressive.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Well you better check your facts.

Have you ever heard of secondary air system?

We even got the ST205 GT-4 Celica here that had a disabled antilag.

Are you talking about Inlet Bypass? I don't really want to count as ALS. Yes, SAS did have em in Evo 4~8, but it really didn't work as ALS should & purpose.

But you wanna count it as ALS then your statement is true.

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Seriously? Is that your argument that WRC cars have nothing to do with street cars?

Absolutely. I was only talking about engine, but you wanna go into suspension, chassis, & other stuffs, WRC car vs stock one, I'll be more than willing to debate

[Type[R]+]

Nice info man!

Originally Posted by 82mm 4g63

I don't know how much residual benefit is derived from it without full-blown Anti-lag activated in the ECU.

Seems any aftermarket ecu/tune does precisely this. Not exactly what you would call CARB legal, but fun anyway!

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Absolutely. I was only talking about engine, but you wanna go into suspension, chassis, & other stuffs, WRC car vs stock one, I'll be more than willing to debate

Question. Whats Group A homologation?

[82mm 4g63]

Wiki'd

In relation to motorsport governed by the FIA, Group A referred to a set of regulations providing production-derived vehicles for outright competition. In contrast to the short-lived Group B and Group C, the Group A referred to production-derived vehicles limited in terms of power, weight, allowed technology and overall cost. Group A was aimed at ensuring a large number of privately-owned entries in races.
Group A was introduced by the FIA in 1982 to replace the outgoing Group 2 as "modified touring cars", while Group N would replace Group 1 as "standard touring cars".

Homologation

To qualify for approval, a minimum of 2500 cars of the competing model had to be built in one year, out of 25,000 for the entire range of the model (e.g.: 2500 Subaru Impreza WRX, out of 25,000 Subaru Impreza). Up to 1991, the requirement was a minimum of 5000 cars in one year, without regards to the entire range, but the FIA allowed "Evolution" models to be homologated with a minimum of 500 cars (e.g.: BMW M3 Sport Evo, Mercedes-Benz W201 Evo). Rules also required some of the interior panels to be retained, e.g. interior door panels and dashboard.
However, not all manufacturers who built 500 such models sold them all, some stripped the majority of them to rebuild them as stock models or used them to allow teams to use modified parts. One such example of this was Volvo with the 240 Turbo in 1985. After they had produced 500 such models, Volvo stripped 477 cars of their competition equipment and sold them as standard 240 turbo roadcars. As a result, after FISA's failed attempt at finding an "Evolution" car in any European countries, Volvo were forced to reveal the names of all 500 "evo" owners to be permitted to compete. The other example was Ford, after selling off their entire RS500 stocks, they read the rulebooks and found themselves that rather than using either the Sierra Cosworths or the RS500s, they could use the body of the basic 3-door Sierra, which Ford was discontinuing, and use their Evolution equipment on them. Nowadays, these cars are treated as any other model in the range.

[Dimman]

They need to bring back strict homologation rules.

ie if Ford wants to use a 1.6L turbo AWD Fiesta with anti lag and sequential trans, in WRC, they have to make at least 2500 of them!



That would instantly make the Fiesta interesting to me.

[ichitaka05]

Add to that, Group A Rally allowed modification. As long as parts were sold to the public (ridiculously expensive)... which allowed ridiculous modification on engine, suspension, exterior parts.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

Add to that, Group A Rally allowed modification. As long as parts were sold to the public (ridiculously expensive)... which allowed ridiculous modification on engine, suspension, exterior parts.

Never said they didn't.

If you're saying rally cars have nothing in common with road cars, I think you're sorely mistaken. But hey, that's just me.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dimman

They need to bring back strict homologation rules.

ie if Ford wants to use a 1.6L turbo AWD Fiesta with anti lag and sequential trans, in WRC, they have to make at least 2500 of them!



That would instantly make the Fiesta interesting to me.

+1

[MF_DEUCE]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

We even got the ST205 GT-4 Celica here that had a disabled antilag.

I wish that car came here in the states.

[Type[R]+]

Originally Posted by MR-uezga

I wish that car came here in the states.

It was, and still is a beast!

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Who said anything about a 12000 rpm redline? BTW, Lexus was going to do it with the LFA, but pegged it at 9500rpm.

you did. you mentioned F1. the F1 turbo cars rev to 12000 rpm. they also had big ass turbos. how else did they make 1200+ hp?

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

And WRC nothing in common with street cars? Seriously?

in terms of turbo tech? yeah. pretty much... rally teams rebuild their engines how many times?

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

BTW Evo 4-9 came with anti-lag. I think you guys must have missed out lol!

lol the hardware was there, but mitsu isnt stupid enough to actually have it work...

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

You better run and tell BMW, VW, and all other european manufacturers this, because they seem to be doing it wrong by your accounts. Granted they do use supercharging as well, but you make it sound like it's impossible. It has been done, and there is more than enough cars out there on the market that says you're wrong, and a lot of them are less than 1.6L!

it is impossible to get both high hp and super quick spool from a 1.6L. just because you slap a turbo on a small displacement motor doesnt make it a performance car. im talking about performance cars. 1.6L is not an engine to put in a performance car unless its light as heck...

Originally Posted by Type[R]+

Thought we were talking about the FT86?

both. the FT is lighter so it wont need as much hp to make it go, BUT that doesnt change anything about the tq curve, area under curve, etc.