Base Cayman vs BRZ

[TorontoNat]

get the cayman

[atomicalex]

The Cayman was on my list, but I could not justify the price or the Porsche tax.

So far, really happy with the BRZ. I probably would have been happy with the Cayman, but I could have two BRZs, so there is that.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

On hot days with the AC blasting I would find the BRZ's power quite lacking. Unacceptably so in my opinion, even in daily driving duty.

But I guess that's just my style. I tach out my GS-R all the time in normal around town driving.

You have to move up north where it's cooler

I think if I were on and off highways at 65+ mph I might feel the same? Majority of my driving is in 25-45 mph zones on curvy back roads. Even in semi-spirited driving, I rarely am pedal to the floor (at least not for very long). That tells me I don't need more power for most of my driving.

BTW by 80's and before standards, our cars are pretty quick. It's all relative. Heck when I used to own an E36 M3 I also owned an 85 RX-7 (1st gen). Fun as hell to wind out but slow. I'd get used to how fast my M3 was (which wasn't *that* fast), so I'd drive the RX-7 for a bit - when I get back into the M3 it would feel like a rocket.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by atomicalex

The Cayman was on my list, but I could not justify the price or the Porsche tax.

So far, really happy with the BRZ. I probably would have been happy with the Cayman, but I could have two BRZs, so there is that.

Anecdote: had a conversation a while back with a good guy who sold me his RCE T2 coils, he upgraded to a Cayman S for his track events. Said he really liked it, but in the end wished he kept his BRZ. Liked it better, cheaper to run.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

You have to move up north where it's cooler

I think if I were on and off highways at 65+ mph I might feel the same? Majority of my driving is in 25-45 mph zones on curvy back roads. Even in semi-spirited driving, I rarely am pedal to the floor (at least not for very long). That tells me I don't need more power for most of my driving.

BTW by 80's and before standards, our cars are pretty quick. It's all relative. Heck when I used to own an E36 M3 I also owned an 85 RX-7 (1st gen). Fun as hell to wind out but slow. I'd get used to how fast my M3 was (which wasn't *that* fast), so I'd drive the RX-7 for a bit - when I get back into the M3 it would feel like a rocket.

Yeah I don't see living in the south as a long term plan. I hate the summers down here; least favorite season by a MILE. Originally from NY/NJ - this NC heat can kiss my ass.

By 80s standards our cars are fast. And also by 80s standards horsepower is insanely cheap to come by these days. Sadly that's not the case at Subaru

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Yeah I don't see living in the south as a long term plan. I hate the summers down here; least favorite season by a MILE. Originally from NY/NJ - this NC heat can kiss my ass.

By 80s standards our cars are fast. And also by 80s standards horsepower is insanely cheap to come by these days. Sadly that's not the case at Subaru

I hear you, lived in Atlanta for a few years (that's when I had the E36). Something was always melting in my cars. Although this past winter up here just sucked. Grass is always greener.

Regarding Subaru, and particularly the "86", I'm not 100% sure why they aren't upping the power. Might be a target market/cost thing, or might just be they have a 'principle' behind the design. If the latter, I have to admire them, especially in a world where manufacturers are throwing in more horsepower just to sell more cars. Reminds me of camera manufacturers and megapixels, you don't necessarily need 30 megapixels to take good pictures. I digress, enjoy that Cayman.

[atomicalex]

They are „Corvetteing“ it.

Read up on John DeLorean and the Pontiac GTO.

With the Supra coming out, the 86 is trapped, and that hamstrings the BRZ with it.

[dowroa]

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

I hear you, lived in Atlanta for a few years (that's when I had the E36). Something was always melting in my cars. Although this past winter up here just sucked. Grass is always greener.

Regarding Subaru, and particularly the "86", I'm not 100% sure why they aren't upping the power. Might be a target market/cost thing, or might just be they have a 'principle' behind the design. If the latter, I have to admire them, especially in a world where manufacturers are throwing in more horsepower just to sell more cars. Reminds me of camera manufacturers and megapixels, you don't necessarily need 30 megapixels to take good pictures. I digress, enjoy that Cayman.

I know this has been addressed before, but the power thing just bothers me.

If you talked to anyone about the 2000 Type-R, they will rave about the car (about identical).

The E90 M3 is a revered car and said it is amazing (less power).

I just don't get it. I have driven a D-Street car, and it was nice. I would like to get in a 17+ soon, and I am sure it is still nice.

As someone who has owned STis, WRXes, Foresters, and Legacys, this is the only Subaru that I still personally believe in.

I guess there just aren't as many of me as I would have liked to see?

- brian

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by dowroa

I know this has been addressed before, but the power thing just bothers me.

If you talked to anyone about the 2000 Type-R, they will rave about the car (about identical).

The E90 M3 is a revered car and said it is amazing (less power).

I just don't get it. I have driven a D-Street car, and it was nice. I would like to get in a 17+ soon, and I am sure it is still nice.

As someone who has owned STis, WRXes, Foresters, and Legacys, this is the only Subaru that I still personally believe in.

I guess there just aren't as many of me as I would have liked to see?

- brian

Yup I agree - I think it has to do with the era in which these cars were born. E30 was born in an era where power didn't rule all. It is a special car very much in the same way the 86 is, not about speed, or even outright limits, but about communication and chassis feel. Same with the Type-R, well that and it really was the first car that broke the perception that front wheel drive cars were oversteering pigs. The 86 is a modern day enthusiast's car, but it's being drowned by the masses that don't understand what makes the car great.

In the end, I don't care. The fact that most people don't know what it is or get what it's about makes me feel even more part of a privileged group. Plus I love the way the thing looks - with aftermarket wheels/lowered a bit to fill the gap, it looks like a baby Aston or Maserati.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by atomicalex

They are „Corvetteing“ it.

Read up on John DeLorean and the Pontiac GTO.

With the Supra coming out, the 86 is trapped, and that hamstrings the BRZ with it.

If the Supra is the amazing performer that Toyota seems to claim it will be, and if it's exclusive and expensive ($50k+), then that statement is absolutely false. There is PLENTY of room for a BRZ with a 11 or 10:1 power to weight ratio for less than $35-40k. And it would also have the distinction of being the only sub 3000 lb sports car with a P/W ratio that low that didn't wear a Porsche crest for less than $100,000.

Originally Posted by dowroa

I know this has been addressed before, but the power thing just bothers me.

If you talked to anyone about the 2000 Type-R, they will rave about the car (about identical).

The E90 M3 is a revered car and said it is amazing (less power).

I just don't get it. I have driven a D-Street car, and it was nice. I would like to get in a 17+ soon, and I am sure it is still nice.

As someone who has owned STis, WRXes, Foresters, and Legacys, this is the only Subaru that I still personally believe in.

I guess there just aren't as many of me as I would have liked to see?

- brian

I'm assuming you meant to say E30 M3 (not E90 which has a 414 hp 4.0 V8).

I know I don't speak for everyone. However myself, and a lot of other enthusiasts I know (a lot being Honda fans) prefer something like a Type R because of the engine's character and personality. It's the same thing for the GS-R and to a lesser extent, cars with the K20. I've talked to several people who say they'd be perfectly fine with the BRZ's engine output if the engine was more like a K20. The FA20 revs up to 7400 rpm, but it sure doesn't seem to really enjoy it. I owned my BRZ side by side with my GS-R and the GS-R's engine is just plain more fun to play with. Nobody will deny that the FA20's significant torque advantage doesn't make it an easier DD but when you're out on the track (or in the mountins) with the engine on full boil nobody cares about that.

A new Civic Si can probably match a 2001 Type R on track today, though it won't be as fun or visceral and it'll probably destroy it's front tires in the process (massively oversized compared to ITR too). And 20 years from now nobody will care about the Si.

[14stu]

Since you're not going to the track (a waste), you should get the Cayman. I'd recommend the S though, since it'll hold value better, so that even though you pay more upfront you shouldn't come out too far behind in the long run (also you won't suffer from regretting not going with the S in the first place).

If you were going to go to the track, I'd recommend a used BRZ. Anything you bring to the track you have to be prepared to leave there in a crumpled and/or burning lump. You cannot enjoy a trackday if you have the specter of financial ruin looming over you.

a 2006-2008 Cayman S can be found with a manual in good condition for $19k-$25k or a newer 2009-2011 in the $30k's (I don't keep up with the dsg prices, but if I believe they are similar and would be the better commuter option).

The consumables on the Cayman are much higher than a twin and the purchase price of the cheapest S are on par with new twins.

I love autox and trackdays (I'm on pace for over 20 autox events and 15-20 trackdays this year). You gain a whole new love for the car when you can push it to its (and your) limit.

I've had a sweet spot for the Cayman since it came out, and I'm still kicking myself for not picking one up in 2009 when the market was flooded by lease returns when the market nose dived (seriously, I had a chance at one for $25k back then and I couldn't buy the same car for that now).

I'm hoping my 2014 BRZ will last me until 2021, when I'll either get a new BRZ with a bigger motor (if the rumors hold up to be true) or finally grab a Cayman S or 997 911 (depending on how the Porsche market changes between now and then). Hell, I could see myself keeping the old BRZ and relegating it to track duty (maybe throwing on a supercharger, that just really messes with autox classing).

If I were starting over tomorrow, I'd either get a 2015 BRZ and set it up the exact same as my current BRZ (STX autox prepped) or find a 2015 BRZ/FRS and throw a Jackson Racing (or Edelbrock) SC kit with flexfuel and call it a day (that'd be about the same price as the cheapest Cayman S and it would be at least as fast, but I'd avoid the Porsche tax on consumables and maintenance).

[WolfpackS2k]

You can avoid the specter of financial ruin by purchasing track event insurance. Not terribly expensive.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

You can avoid the specter of financial ruin by purchasing track event insurance. Not terribly expensive.

How much?

[WolfpackS2k]

$30,000 of coverage for a 2 day track event is about $230.