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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 04-26-2017, 12:59 PM   #57
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I honestly think that's it's because of the extra weight. 120lbs is a 5% increase. The MX5's best weapon is the lack of weight. Add more weight to it, and it has a big impact on the overall performance.
Funny, I figured it was the meaty torque band, shorter gear ratios (which the new 86 closed the gap on), more advanced suspension, shorter wheelbase, and better F:R weight balance were all part of it's arsenal, not just overall weight.

Aside from weather the biggest differences between this and the last comparison is the weight of the RF-ND and the gear ratios of the 86, I suppose the 5hp bump played a part too. The PP might have been worth a bit more because of the dampers, but I doubt it's significant.

All in all, the equation hasn't changed, great little cars, take your pick on what you want to live with, some people want the top down, some people want a sizable trunk, some people like suspension compliance, some people like it flat from the factory.



I hope the RF comes in lower trim options soon, Mazda will really kill sales if they keep it priced over $30k.
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:31 PM   #58
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Funny, I figured it was the meaty torque band, shorter gear ratios (which the new 86 closed the gap on), more advanced suspension, shorter wheelbase, and better F:R weight balance were all part of it's arsenal, not just overall weight.

Aside from weather the biggest differences between this and the last comparison is the weight of the RF-ND and the gear ratios of the 86, I suppose the 5hp bump played a part too. The PP might have been worth a bit more because of the dampers, but I doubt it's significant.
Lol well yes all of those make a difference. I meant to say that it's the big advantage over the 86. Yes shorter gears, torque band etc.. But because the car is 2300lbs instead of 3000lbs, those differences have a bigger impact.

It's like the difference between adding 20whp to an 86/BRZ and adding 20whp to an 500hp BMW SUV lol. The end result is more apparent in the 86/BRZ
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Old 04-26-2017, 01:37 PM   #59
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But because the car is 2300lbs instead of 3000lbs, those differences have a bigger impact.
To be nitpicky, fully loaded my '13 FR-S is <2,760 lbs, it's down around 2,700 lbs with a 1/4 tank of gas and the tools and spare removed from the trunk. Zero money spent on weight reduction parts.

If 100 lbs makes the difference for the Miata, don't short change the 86 by 300 lbs.

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Old 04-26-2017, 01:51 PM   #60
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The only reason the 86 was built is because Toyota engineers valued precisely the same "imaginary component" that the MX-5 embodies, otherwise we'd end up with a boring overweight 370Z/Genesis competitor with Camry V6 in it.

Mazda just took fewer compromises in attempting that concept, therefore they hit closer to the mark. Those compromises are exactly why Toyobaru has sold hundreds of thousands of 86's.

@funwheeldrive is right, if you cared about the performance numbers and value you should get a 4-cylinder pony car and mod it or spring for one of the higher trim pony cars. The only thing that comes close to that is a used Porsche.
What? Hundreds of thousands?
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:09 PM   #61
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What? Hundreds of thousands?
Yeah, they surpassed 100k units built in 2014, so I'm being a bit presumptuous that they continued at a rate and that it's surpassed 200k.

http://performancedrive.com.au/toyot...ustralia-2720/

Early statements claimed targets of 100k/year, which was in hindsight totally never going to happen, even at the time there was heavy skepticism around here they would hit that, a few optimists though. But we're coming up on 90k in the US alone, in May 2014 US had a bit more than 50k of the 100k total, so they're probably at ~170k-190k total units built and likely another 3-5 years of production slated, I'd say they're guaranteed to surpass 200k 86's built unless something cataclysmic happens.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:40 PM   #62
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Yeah, they surpassed 100k units built in 2014, so I'm being a bit presumptuous that they continued at a rate and that it's surpassed 200k.

http://performancedrive.com.au/toyot...ustralia-2720/

Early statements claimed targets of 100k/year, which was in hindsight totally never going to happen, even at the time there was heavy skepticism around here they would hit that, a few optimists though. But we're coming up on 90k in the US alone, in May 2014 US had a bit more than 50k of the 100k total, so they're probably at ~170k-190k total units built and likely another 3-5 years of production slated, I'd say they're guaranteed to surpass 200k 86's built unless something cataclysmic happens.
Okay, sorry. I guess I'd just been looking at US figures. Even then, though, I wouldn't have guessed it was that high. The US is a pretty big market an I don't think sales here are even close to 100k over the platform's lifespan.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:43 PM   #63
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To be nitpicky, fully loaded my '13 FR-S is <2,760 lbs, it's down around 2,700 lbs with a 1/4 tank of gas and the tools and spare removed from the trunk. Zero money spent on weight reduction parts.

If 100 lbs makes the difference for the Miata, don't short change the 86 by 300 lbs.

The 2300lbs comment was aimed towards the Miata. The 3000lbs was just a generic figure.
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:49 PM   #64
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The US is a pretty big market an I don't think sales here are even close to 100k over the platform's lifespan.
>90k and counting, I'd expect 100k to be surpassed later this year given a bump in sales due to the refresh over 2016 numbers.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html
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Old 04-26-2017, 03:18 PM   #65
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All they showed in this video were lap times. If you look at the mx5 vs BRZ video they did a while back, you'll see that the mx5 is faster from 0-60, faster down the 1/4, faster from 60-0 braking, faster around the figure 8, and pulls a higher lateral accleration g figure, and it also pulled a faster lap time... just to let ya know, since we're talking about "measurable differences".
Well, to be fair that was the soft top variant

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I honestly think that's it's because of the extra weight. 120lbs is a 5% increase. The MX5's best weapon is the lack of weight. Add more weight to it, and it has a big impact on the overall performance. The standard mx5 they did posted a 1:29.9 at the same track, while the previous BRZ posted a 1:31.3.

Granted, the tests were done on different days, but the new 86 did better by 1 second, and the RF did worse by 1 second, to meet in the middle.
I agree, which is why this head-2-head is comparing apples to oranges


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The article was a comparison of two cars, not a subjective review of one. Comparisons are done based on measured values. The term 'feel' is subjective, though ultimately being the result of SOMETHING measurable that could be used in the comparison. The article failed by presenting the 86 as a winner when comparing measured criteria, but losing ultimately to a nondescript term. If the RF beats the 86 due to feel, then explain what actually caused that difference. Is it stock alignment numbers? Tire choice? Weight? Slalom speed? Steering ratio? It isn't rocket science to quantify the reason something wins, but it IS poor journalism (especially for a car magazine) to not be able to explain it. I'd expect a review like this from The New Yorker, not a magazine trying to sell itself based on automotive experience.
I agree with this as well. As TylerLieberman already pointed out we already looked at a comparison between the soft top and the FRS/86. I think it would have been more benefitial to do a Head 2 Head 2 Head 2 Head of sorts like their 2017 Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio video. These cars are different enough now that you could easily compare a MX-5 vs MX-5 RF vs 86 vs BRZ
That would at minimum show the general public that the 86 doesn't solely represent all the twins have to offer. While it would be hard to argue the 86 is better in any way compared to the BRZ, it would be interesting to hear what they thought going from one to another. I'd even wager Randy could shave off a full second with the BRZ as the result of its new spoiler, STI lip kit and PP.

Oh well.. I wont complain too much, nice to hear journalists not bashing the twins for once
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Old 04-26-2017, 04:47 PM   #66
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No spare!

I gave serious thought to buying the RF instead of the BRZ, in part because in gun metal gray, that Mazda is drop-dead beautiful. But I just could not get past the fact that it doesn't have a spare tire, not even a little weenie temp spare, just a can of goo! I could maybe get past the lack of back seats and the miniscule trunk and the almost no glove box and the fixed steering wheel. But just A CAN OF GOO? Sorry, the old backpacker in me needs more.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:36 PM   #67
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I gave serious thought to buying the RF instead of the BRZ, in part because in gun metal gray, that Mazda is drop-dead beautiful. But I just could not get past the fact that it doesn't have a spare tire, not even a little weenie temp spare, just a can of goo! I could maybe get past the lack of back seats and the miniscule trunk and the almost no glove box and the fixed steering wheel. But just A CAN OF GOO? Sorry, the old backpacker in me needs more.
Completely agree, it looks sooo good!
..and then i saw the price. I did exactly what you did, bought a brz

Also, you dont need a spare okay? not when they also dont come with tow hooks, scissor jack, or lug wrench
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=592645
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:22 AM   #68
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Completely agree, it looks sooo good!
..and then i saw the price. I did exactly what you did, bought a brz
Same here. I test drove a '16 BRZ Limited and a '16 MX-5 (Club, non-brembo) back to back and was nearly dead set on the MX-5. Then the RF and the '17 BRZ with PP came out. With the Performance Pack BRZ (even in Series.Yellow guise) being less than a RF Club, even without the Brembo/BBS package, I went the other way.

That being said, I can't fault MT for their conclusion either. Both are great cars and you really have to start to nitpick to decide which one is for you. Unless you either HATE or NEED a convertible.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:01 AM   #69
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Same here. I test drove a '16 BRZ Limited and a '16 MX-5 (Club, non-brembo) back to back and was nearly dead set on the MX-5. Then the RF and the '17 BRZ with PP came out. With the Performance Pack BRZ (even in Series.Yellow guise) being less than a RF Club, even without the Brembo/BBS package, I went the other way.

That being said, I can't fault MT for their conclusion either. Both are great cars and you really have to start to nitpick to decide which one is for you. Unless you either HATE or NEED a convertible.
I'm another one who cross shopped the Miata ND and bought the BRZ Ltd. w/PP. ND was just too tight for a daily driver for me. Not to mention the exploding gear boxes and higher cost.
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:56 AM   #70
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Not to mention the exploding gear boxes and higher cost.
That was an issue from the supplier on early production vehicles. Any vehicles built after September 2015 don't have that issue, from my understanding.

All the vehicles that have suffered from transmission issues have been taken care of by Mazda, no questions asked.

At least it was acknowledged and addressed.
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