follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing

Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing Relating to suspension, chassis, and brakes. Sponsored by 949 Racing.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-16-2014, 01:38 AM   #1
ndsleep612
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Drives: Thee Argento Cricket
Location: Somewhere far away
Posts: 165
Thanks: 101
Thanked 29 Times in 23 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Stock brakes too small for stock wheels

I've owned my FR-S for over 6 months and every time a big "oh sh*t" event happens it's related to the stopping power of the brakes. It got me thinking if the car should have came with larger rotors or smaller wheels.

I drive conservatively, but once in a while I'll gun in on a freeway entrance to match the speed of traffic. When I step on the brake pedal, it feels that there just isn't enough bite to the stock brakes when you're trying to slow down when traveling 85 or doing emergency braking. The BBK looks so tempting whenever i see the small donut of a brake rotor on my FR-S engulfed by the stock 17's.

Does anyone else feel that the stock brakes "could" be better? Such as a stock 4-piston caliper for the front wheels?
ndsleep612 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 01:43 AM   #2
wootwoot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: FRS
Location: Cali
Posts: 1,558
Thanks: 188
Thanked 461 Times in 264 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Get better tires. The brakes are more than sufficient. The Prius rubber is the weak link.
wootwoot is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 18 Users Say Thank You to wootwoot For This Useful Post:
akyp (01-16-2014), Captain Snooze (01-16-2014), DAEMANO (04-10-2014), DAMotorsports (01-16-2014), Dave-ROR (01-16-2014), ftc~brz (01-31-2014), radroach (04-10-2014), raul (01-27-2014), SirBrass (01-31-2014), STV3 (01-16-2014), suaveflooder (02-01-2014), Suberman (01-16-2014), SubieNate (02-02-2014), tahdizzle (04-10-2014), The Tengu (01-16-2014), VroomVroom86 (04-10-2014), whataboutbob (02-01-2014), wparsons (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 03:10 AM   #3
IAmNotTheDriftKing
Senior Member
 
IAmNotTheDriftKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Drives: I own an FR-S. . . whatelse!
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 318
Thanks: 114
Thanked 140 Times in 84 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Get better pads as well. No need to get bigger rotors unless you track the car every weekend. Plus those are expensive.
IAmNotTheDriftKing is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to IAmNotTheDriftKing For This Useful Post:
chas3wba0 (01-31-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 07:34 AM   #4
wparsons
Senior Member
 
wparsons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Go do this simple test on an empty road.

Get up to speed and slam on the brakes, does the ABS get engaged? If so, you don't need more stopping power at all. If you feel the car doesn't stop fast enough, you need more grip (better tires).
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak...
flickr
wparsons is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to wparsons For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (01-16-2014), Mikepage (01-16-2014), SirBrass (01-31-2014), suaveflooder (02-01-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014), Trac Toy (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 09:57 AM   #5
SkAsphalt
Ridge Racerrrrrrrrr
 
SkAsphalt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Scion FR-S, 2004 Toyota Coroll
Location: Regina, Sk
Posts: 3,516
Thanks: 5,786
Thanked 1,363 Times in 954 Posts
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Stop speeding up to 85mph in moments when you need to "oh shit" hit your brakes. Just stop doing that.
__________________
SkAsphalt is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to SkAsphalt For This Useful Post:
Evil Jesus (01-26-2014), flippy (04-14-2014), Ozzman (02-01-2014), SirBrass (01-31-2014), suaveflooder (02-01-2014), SubieNate (02-02-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 10:25 AM   #6
Suberman
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Drives: Subaru BRZ Sport Tech Satin White
Location: Calgary, Alberta,Canada
Posts: 1,228
Thanks: 147
Thanked 320 Times in 225 Posts
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Brakes are possibly the most misunderstood mod out there.

Whenever you're tempted to "upgrade" your brakes go out and see if ABS can be activated on warm dry pavement. If it can your brakes are already stopping the car as quickly as possible.

Then fit grippier tires. If the ABS does not activate then and only then do you need "bigger brakes".

Brakes generate heat by slowing the wheels. Brake discs need to be big enough and vented enough to keep the brake pads from fading by dissipating that heat quickly enough to maintain the designed operating temperature for the selected pads. Larger rotors are mainly about improved heat capacity and dissipation rates. It is rare that a road car has brake rotors that are too small. Small is beautiful because brakes are unsprung weight, remember that, unsprung weight.

It is critical to recognize that brake pads only work well over their designed temperature range. Cold brakes don't work very well at all. You MUST fit brake pads that run neither too cool nor too hot, with the "too cool" aspect of primary importance on the street. Often brakes that look too cool are and don't stop you as well as they need to on that first cold emergency stop of the day.

The number of pistons in the caliper is not relevant in the real world. Basically, total caliper piston area has to match the pressure multiplier required by the size of the master cylinder piston. Go too big and the MC won't work effectively. Caliper piston area is mainly a function of pad area. Big pads might be needed for very demanding braking but they will likely be useless on the street. So, start with pads before you decide you need bigger calipers with more pistons or more piston area.

If you find your brakes are fading on the street then you need to modify your driving. You should NEVER experience an "oh shit" moment when driving. If you do, then you need to be more observant.

For track work the best solution is a set of track optimized pads you put in and take out at the track. Using track pads on the street is pretty stupid actually and can kill you.

Don't mess around with brakes until you've read up enough to know you don't mess around with brakes. Buy only from a reputable brake specialist AFTER reading everything you can about their products to ensure it will do what you need it to do (NEED, not want brakes are not a styling option).

Any factory brake upgrade will also work fine. Note there isn't one for these cars as yet. The factory brakes are very, very good for most driving. Only repeated hot lapping shows up any fade. That's due to the chosen pad material and designed that way.
Suberman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 14 Users Say Thank You to Suberman For This Useful Post:
chas3wba0 (01-31-2014), DAEMANO (04-10-2014), ftc~brz (01-31-2014), Ganthrithor (01-19-2014), n0m0h0s (02-01-2014), nalc (01-29-2014), Ozzman (02-01-2014), sc0urge (02-01-2014), SirBrass (01-31-2014), SkAsphalt (01-16-2014), suaveflooder (02-01-2014), SubieNate (02-02-2014), teamturbo (01-17-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 10:34 AM   #7
Vonsamhain
Senior Member
 
Vonsamhain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: Scion FR-S (Raven)
Location: Hayward, CA
Posts: 158
Thanks: 18
Thanked 72 Times in 32 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
The biggest reason for BBK isnt stopping power or bite anyway, the difference is ussualy quite small. It's more about disapating heat from constant use. The hotter your brakes become the less useful the are.
__________________
2013 Raven FR-S MT + Sparco Assetto 18x8 + Michelinn Pilot Super Sprot 225/40/r18 + Takeda CAI + Fortune Auto 500 coilovers + Tanabe Sustec front and Rear strut tower brace + Carbeau FX1 / 6 point harness / Harness Bar + Nameless front pipe + Perrin cat back + FA20club E85 tune + Wilwood front & rear brakes
Vonsamhain is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Vonsamhain For This Useful Post:
Racecomp Engineering (01-16-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 11:14 AM   #8
andrew5826
Señor Member
 
andrew5826's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Drives: BRZ SWP
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 192
Thanks: 22
Thanked 109 Times in 54 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
i've had my brz for a little over 6 months as well and i've never found the stock brakes to be lacking. It actually does a better job with better pedal feel compared to other heavier cars w/ BBKs ive driven. the key is to be on the verge of locking up. you can only stop as fast as friction allows you
andrew5826 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to andrew5826 For This Useful Post:
CSG Mike (01-16-2014), SkAsphalt (01-16-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 11:40 AM   #9
wparsons
Senior Member
 
wparsons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: 2013 Asphalt FR-S Manual
Location: Whitby, ON, Canada
Posts: 6,716
Thanks: 7,875
Thanked 3,351 Times in 2,134 Posts
Mentioned: 99 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suberman View Post
Small is beautiful because brakes are unsprung weight, remember that, unsprung weight.
Bigger doesn't always mean heavier, the AP racing spring kit has bigger discs but cuts a significant amount of weight from each corner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suberman View Post
It is critical to recognize that brake pads only work well over their designed temperature range. Cold brakes don't work very well at all. You MUST fit brake pads that run neither too cool nor too hot, with the "too cool" aspect of primary importance on the street. Often brakes that look too cool are and don't stop you as well as they need to on that first cold emergency stop of the day.

For track work the best solution is a set of track optimized pads you put in and take out at the track. Using track pads on the street is pretty stupid actually and can kill you.
Not all track pads are unsafe on the street, saying they will kill you is a huge stretch. Even a hardcore high temp pad will have some bite in the cold.

My "summer" pads (Ferodo DS2500) have more bite at 0* than my stock pads do, the only reason I took them out is they're much noisier in the winter temps and I don't need higher heat capacity so I might as well run down the cheaper stock pads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suberman View Post
The number of pistons in the caliper is not relevant in the real world. Basically, total caliper piston area has to match the pressure multiplier required by the size of the master cylinder piston. Go too big and the MC won't work effectively. Caliper piston area is mainly a function of pad area. Big pads might be needed for very demanding braking but they will likely be useless on the street. So, start with pads before you decide you need bigger calipers with more pistons or more piston area.
The only real benefit to going to a 4 piston caliper from ours is that you'll get a fixed (non sliding) caliper which is more rigid and offers better feel at the pedal. You're right that you won't gain a drop of stopping power from an upgrade like that.

One other thing to consider is that there are two types of fade... pad fade and fade from boiling the fluid. Pad fade happens when the pads are too hot to stop you and you lose bite, but the pedal stays firm. If you boil the fluid the pedal goes soft and you have zero braking power. If you're going to upgrade the pads, you NEED to upgrade to a higher temp fluid as well.

Another consideration with a BBK is that they can actually reduce your consumable costs if you track the car a lot. The rotors will last longer, and two piece ones are cheaper to replace the rings. Pads are also generally cheaper than the same pad for the OEM caliper.

For a street driven car that sees the odd autoslalom, the biggest braking upgrade you'll need from a functional standpoint is better pads and fluid.
__________________
Light travels faster than sound, so people may appear to be bright until you hear them speak...
flickr
wparsons is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to wparsons For This Useful Post:
Boxer486 (01-31-2014), Ganthrithor (01-19-2014), n0m0h0s (02-01-2014), SirBrass (04-11-2014), suaveflooder (02-01-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 11:51 AM   #10
BlueDubbinTDI
Senior Member
 
BlueDubbinTDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 FR-S, 2012 MCS
Location: Jax, FL
Posts: 1,975
Thanks: 943
Thanked 570 Times in 356 Posts
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I'll say it again, you think these brakes suck? Drive a Golf, you'll change your mind.
BlueDubbinTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to BlueDubbinTDI For This Useful Post:
SirBrass (04-11-2014), SubieNate (02-02-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014), wparsons (01-16-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 11:54 AM   #11
CSG Mike
 
CSG Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Drives: S2000 CR
Location: Orange County
Posts: 14,522
Thanks: 8,911
Thanked 14,166 Times in 6,828 Posts
Mentioned: 966 Post(s)
Tagged: 14 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndsleep612 View Post
I've owned my FR-S for over 6 months and every time a big "oh sh*t" event happens it's related to the stopping power of the brakes. It got me thinking if the car should have came with larger rotors or smaller wheels.

I drive conservatively, but once in a while I'll gun in on a freeway entrance to match the speed of traffic. When I step on the brake pedal, it feels that there just isn't enough bite to the stock brakes when you're trying to slow down when traveling 85 or doing emergency braking. The BBK looks so tempting whenever i see the small donut of a brake rotor on my FR-S engulfed by the stock 17's.

Does anyone else feel that the stock brakes "could" be better? Such as a stock 4-piston caliper for the front wheels?
Are you hitting ABS? Braking distance is determined by your stock tires. Better pads will get you more bite, so you can get more braking force applied to the tires with less pedal pressure. A BBK's primary purpose is to allow you to sustain lots of back to back braking without overheating.

Other than telling us that the brakes suck, tell us WHY they suck, and I can point you in the right direction.

"Doctor, I'm sick" - your first post
"What are your symptoms" - my post

Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons View Post
Go do this simple test on an empty road.

Get up to speed and slam on the brakes, does the ABS get engaged? If so, you don't need more stopping power at all. If you feel the car doesn't stop fast enough, you need more grip (better tires).
This.

Hit ABS? Get better tires
Can't hit ABS no matter how hard u step on the pedal? Get better pads
Pedal is spongy? Bleed the brakes.
Want to drop a nuke on the problem? Get a BBK with high performance pads.
CSG Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to CSG Mike For This Useful Post:
Anthonytpt (01-16-2014), Ganthrithor (01-19-2014), SkAsphalt (01-16-2014), TeamZleep (01-16-2014), whataboutbob (02-01-2014)
Old 01-16-2014, 12:00 PM   #12
DarkSunrise
Senior Member
 
DarkSunrise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Drives: 22 BRZ (Previously 13 FR-S)
Location: USA
Posts: 5,794
Thanks: 2,162
Thanked 4,242 Times in 2,220 Posts
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndsleep612 View Post
I've owned my FR-S for over 6 months and every time a big "oh sh*t" event happens it's related to the stopping power of the brakes. It got me thinking if the car should have came with larger rotors or smaller wheels.

I drive conservatively, but once in a while I'll gun in on a freeway entrance to match the speed of traffic. When I step on the brake pedal, it feels that there just isn't enough bite to the stock brakes when you're trying to slow down when traveling 85 or doing emergency braking. The BBK looks so tempting whenever i see the small donut of a brake rotor on my FR-S engulfed by the stock 17's.

Does anyone else feel that the stock brakes "could" be better? Such as a stock 4-piston caliper for the front wheels?
Before spending money on an expensive BBK, try Stoptech SP pads + fresh DOT 4 brake fluid. That'll cost less than $150. Make sure to bed-in properly.

It'll be subjective to some degree, but with that setup, I had an issue with the brakes almost have too much initial bite on the street.
__________________
"Never run out of real estate, traction, and ideas at the same time."

2022 BRZ Build
2013 FR-S Build
DarkSunrise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 12:15 PM   #13
m.wood0213
Driving Enthusiast
 
m.wood0213's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Drives: 2013 BRZ Limited
Location: Burleson, TX
Posts: 837
Thanks: 83
Thanked 158 Times in 118 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
I have never had an issue with the stock brakes. Ive driven on some twisty backroads pushing the car about 75% and heavy braking with ZERO fade. I have only occasionally engaged ABS. When an "oh shit" moment happens try a different reaction on the brakes. Dont just slam on the brakes and hold it on the floor. I am no track day expert but you have to transfer the weight to the front. If you gradually (but quickly) press down on the brakes will help out. Then when you feel they are about to lock up, let up just a hair on the peddle to minimize your braking distance.

Like I said Im no expert and havent driven track days or race cars but my last car had no ABS and when those "oh shit" moments happened I knew how to deal with them. You should have more confidence in yourself and your NEW car with WRX brakes. At least upgrade the front tires to something more grippy the leave the back as they are so you can get them loose when you want!
__________________
“This isn’t a supercar, it’s a sports car. It sacrifices rear seats yes but it just feels alive. Pure, direct, immediate. The other two are going to get all the admiring looks yes, that’s my point. I’m not driving around in this for other people’s benefit. I’m driving around in this BECAUSE I LOVE DRIVING IT. END!”
-Richard Hammond, Top Gear, USA Supercar Road Trip, 2011 Porsche GT3 RS.
My BRZ
m.wood0213 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2014, 12:31 PM   #14
DR 86
Senior Member
 
DR 86's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Drives: 2013 FR-S
Location: Toronto
Posts: 292
Thanks: 17
Thanked 76 Times in 60 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Stock brakes are great. 3 track days on then with zero issues no fade on Motul brake fluid before upgrading to track pads. Just learn to drive properly.
__________________
Perrin CAI|Perrin MCB|P&L header|Motiv OP/FP|MXP catback|Tein Type Flex coilovers|Eibach F/R sway bars|GS front strut brace|Street:PM HC+800/Track:Carbotech XP10|StopTech slotted rotors/SS lines|SBC RPF1s|Street:FK453/Winter:Pirelli SottoZero3/Track:Toyo R888s|Leg Sport rear spoiler|EcuTek Tuned|OEM oil cooler|4th/F1 brake lights
DR 86 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How do you feel about stock brakes? SillySaxon Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 21 09-16-2013 09:26 AM
Stock brakes too weak? Alabang BRZ Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 111 09-13-2013 04:41 PM
What's everyone doing on stock brakes, for pads? Nourdmrolnmt1 Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing 45 05-15-2013 05:08 PM
FS: Stock front FRS Brakes(complete w/ lines) whiteout13FRS Brakes, Suspension, Chassis 0 04-12-2013 04:13 AM
FS: Stock Wheels+Stock Tires+TPMS sensor Pin Flare Wheels and Tires 1 03-26-2013 11:07 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.