20mm Spacers didn't work for me

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by rvoll

So I've read the posts that follow yours. It seems that the car you were referencing that had spacers was not raced much and turned like a pig. And you want to use that as a reference? And 10mm spacers? Really? I'm beginning to think that there is no good justification for using spacers at all. It just seems to be another ricer thing to make your car look more powerful than it is. And yeah, in the back of my mind, that's probably what was going on with me. Shame on me......

There are practical situations that can require using a spacer, like an aftermarket brake kit that needs more space. I understand you didn't like it although you made it worse by installing only rear. I wouldn't use spacers just for looks either. But I don't think anybody else is removing their spacers after this thread. I am feeling that you are making a bigger deal than it is.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by mrg666

There are practical situations that can require using a spacer, like an aftermarket brake kit that needs more space. I understand you didn't like it although you made it worse by installing only rear. I wouldn't use spacers just for looks either. But I don't think anybody else is removing their spacers after this thread. I am feeling that you are making a bigger deal than it is.

Agree totally... I actually made it worse by knowing better and doing it anyway... It wasn't meant to make a big deal out of it, only a statement for other new owners who might be tempted to do the same. People here treat spacers and wide tires and loud exhausts and headers and lowered suspensions as extreme positives. But there are negatives to anything that changes the engineered balance of this car. Setting the car up for track is a very different animal than driving it on the street. What I'm finding out is that it is very difficult to improve the 2018 BRZ for street driving over what comes from the factory. So far, the only real improvement I've made are upgrading the tires to PS4S.

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Agree totally... I actually made it worse by knowing better and doing it anyway... It wasn't meant to make a big deal out of it, only a statement for other new owners who might be tempted to do the same. People here treat spacers and wide tires and loud exhausts and headers and lowered suspensions as extreme positives. But there are negatives to anything that changes the engineered balance of this car. Setting the car up for track is a very different animal than driving it on the street. What I'm finding out is that it is very difficult to improve the 2018 BRZ for street driving over what comes from the factory. So far, the only real improvement I've made are upgrading the tires to PS4S.

If I were you, I would give ACE header and Delicious tune a try. You would ask why I have not done it yet. Because I chose a different path and I don't see any chance you would try FI.
While doing that, I would also do a lighter, better sound exhaust just for the heck of it. I bet you will have more fun. I love to listen my HKS catback sing.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by mrg666

If I were you, I would give ACE header and Delicious tune a try. You would ask why I have not done it yet. Because I chose a different path and I don't see any chance you would try FI.
While doing that, I would also do a lighter, better sound exhaust just for the heck of it. I bet you will have more fun. I love to listen my HKS catback sing.

You are right that I won't go FI -- not that more power wouldn't be nice, but I just don't need it. Noise is a big issue, especially with my wife. Personally, I like quieter cars and the 2018 BRZ, even though quieter than the 2016, is about at the limit for me. (I removed the sound tube first day). In addition, I'm very sensitive to drone having been an orchestral musician when I was young. I hear drone when other can't. I also live in Vegas so header temps play a role. I know the ACE header and tune would get rid of some of the low spots, but again, that slight increase in performance is of little value to me and not worth the effort. I happen to like the car as it or I would have purchased a Cayman. I had a TR6 as my first new car in 1969, and loved the feeling. This BRZ gets as close to that feeling as any car right now. So nostalgia plays a role as well. By the way, I did test a few restored TR6's prior to buying this, and the reality was not as good as the memory! The TR6 today would be a BRZ....

[Racecomp Engineering]

Ask yourselves this...what's the difference between a car with stock wheels and 20mm spacers and a car with identically sized wheels with an offset -20mm from stock?

- Andrew

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Ask yourselves this...what's the difference between a car with stock wheels and 20mm spacers and a car with identically sized wheels with an offset -20mm from stock?

- Andrew

Ask yourselves this..... Where does anyone on this board recommend wheels with a 28 offset? Which 28 offset wheel would you recommend? LOL....

I know the point you are making, but what does this have to do with the price of tea in China?

BTW, 20mm spacers are cheap. New wheels are expensive. That's one of the differences.

One more question for you since you know a lot more about suspensions that me.... What would be the effect of putting 20mm spacers on both the front and rear? Would that equalize the slight understeer? What other effects might it have on the car's handling? How much would you change the alignment?

[mrg666]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Ask yourselves this...what's the difference between a car with stock wheels and 20mm spacers and a car with identically sized wheels with an offset -20mm from stock?

- Andrew

I'll give it shot! 20 additional studs and 4 extra disks squeezed between the wheel and hub?

[churchx]

From things that may matter, in some cases lesser offset wheel + spacers have better brake clearance then wheel with offset like that of if with spacer. Of course that's not related with handling changes this thread is about.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by rvoll

I did install the spacers again and the steering wheel, even at low speeds, had to be turned slightly more with the spacers. Is it technically "understeer". It felt that way, but it may not be. When I first put on the spacers, I was not expecting a noticeable difference, so when it happened, it was probably amplified in my mind. This second time, my perception of it was much less, but it was still there. I'm a bit OCD and do things like close open cabinets, turn off lights, and am uncomfortable when things aren't spaced properly. I also lost an eye in the military so my brain has compensated for things like balance and distance. It could be a combination of the two. So, perhaps I'm a bit more sensitive to this type of change than most people. I've confirmed it is real, but not nearly "severe" as I perceived the first time. I guess most people wouldn't notice it. But it is confirmed that a wider track in back causes a slight increase in understeer.

But you are wrong about not feeling it at all. Perhaps YOU don't sense it, but I certainly do and now with measurements have confirmed that it is true.

Get it on video around the same turn at the same speed and I'll believe you. I still think this is all in your head.

As for feeling it... are you suggesting the steering wheel has more weight when turning the wheels, or that you "feel" the wheel having to turn more? There's simply no way that you've increased the weight of the steering effort by spacing out the rear axle.

And again, understeer by definition is the front wheels slipping more than the rears. Your definition is taking some liberties even on the definition you quoted. The quoted definition assumes the expected amount is the amount that happens with no slippage, not what you assume it should do. That's like claiming my wife's car understeers like crazy because I have to turn the wheel 45* further to make the same turn as my car.


What you're actually describing is an increased turning radius. I'm still skeptical that widening the rear axle by 40mm total increased it a noticeable amount, but video will shut me up.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Get it on video around the same turn at the same speed and I'll believe you. I still think this is all in your head.

As for feeling it... are you suggesting the steering wheel has more weight when turning the wheels, or that you "feel" the wheel having to turn more? There's simply no way that you've increased the weight of the steering effort by spacing out the rear axle.

And again, understeer by definition is the front wheels slipping more than the rears. Your definition is taking some liberties even on the definition you quoted. The quoted definition assumes the expected amount is the amount that happens with no slippage, not what you assume it should do. That's like claiming my wife's car understeers like crazy because I have to turn the wheel 45* further to make the same turn as my car.


What you're actually describing is an increased turning radius. I'm still skeptical that widening the rear axle by 40mm total increased it a noticeable amount, but video will shut me up.

I've already done it and I'm not doing it again. Besides, it sounds like you wouldn't believe it anyway. So, are you trying to justify your spacers? I suppose you are also the type that thinks you have better ride quality with lowering springs or coilovers. It's in your head.....

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by rvoll

Ask yourselves this..... Where does anyone on this board recommend wheels with a 28 offset? Which 28 offset wheel would you recommend? LOL....

That's the bloody point, I wouldn't recommend 28 offset wheels and most people on here wouldn't either for anything other than looks. I'm not anti-spacer, I'm anti-badoffset.

Originally Posted by rvoll

One more question for you since you know a lot more about suspensions that me.... What would be the effect of putting 20mm spacers on both the front and rear? Would that equalize the slight understeer? What other effects might it have on the car's handling? How much would you change the alignment?

Putting the same size spacers front and rear would reduce the understeer that you're experiencing now with just the rears on. However, spacers at the rear don't effect scrub radius because those wheels aren't attached to your steering rack which you do have to deal with up front. I don't know if the net would overall be positive, but you'd probably want to add a little more camber.

- Andrew

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

That's the bloody point, I wouldn't recommend 28 offset wheels and most people on here wouldn't either for anything other than looks. I'm not anti-spacer, I'm anti-badoffset.

Putting the same size spacers front and rear would reduce the understeer that you're experiencing now with just the rears on. However, spacers at the rear don't effect scrub radius because those wheels aren't attached to your steering rack which you do have to deal with up front. I don't know if the net would overall be positive, but you'd probably want to add a little more camber.

- Andrew

So, you'd have problems with a lot of people here that put 20mm spacers on the front and 25mm on the rear? (Rhetorical -- no need to answer). Since I took my spacers off are we OK now? (Rhetorical again).

I wasn't planning to put any spacers back on the car, so my question was theoretical. I find these Twins interesting vis-a-vis all of the other cars I've owned. Many owners do extensive mods. With other cars, there were those who did weekend tracking with their cars. Serious racing people were not on those boards. Those who did weekend tracking did minimal mods -- mostly wheels and tires. Virtually no one put spacers on their car. If engines were modified, they were being rebuilt. There was little discussion on exhaust systems except for muscle cars.

I'm blown away at how balanced this car is as it comes from the manufacturer with no modifications. I'm beginning to think that any mods will have a negative impact on this balance.

Thank you for your input and knowledge on this forum. It is extremely helpful.

[Lynxis]

I ran 5mm spacers at all 4 corners with my 17x7.5 +38 offset wheels (for effective +32 offset) in order to clear my BBK for a season. I was running an all season tire at 215/45r17 on this setup. I drove this setup on the street for about 1 season and on track and autoslalom for about 1 event each and noticed moderately increased steering effort and slightly increased understeer at the limit. There was no way I would notice the difference in understeer at typical street driving speeds.

I moved away from spacers because spacers of any type are now illegal where I live.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by rvoll

So, you'd have problems with a lot of people here that put 20mm spacers on the front and 25mm on the rear? (Rhetorical -- no need to answer). Since I took my spacers off are we OK now? (Rhetorical again).

I wasn't planning to put any spacers back on the car, so my question was theoretical. I find these Twins interesting vis-a-vis all of the other cars I've owned. Many owners do extensive mods. With other cars, there were those who did weekend tracking with their cars. Serious racing people were not on those boards. Those who did weekend tracking did minimal mods -- mostly wheels and tires. Virtually no one put spacers on their car. If engines were modified, they were being rebuilt. There was little discussion on exhaust systems except for muscle cars.

I'm blown away at how balanced this car is as it comes from the manufacturer with no modifications. I'm beginning to think that any mods will have a negative impact on this balance.

Thank you for your input and knowledge on this forum. It is extremely helpful.

I've got no problems with how people mod their cars as long as they keep them safe.

Thanks for the kind words. It's a fun car in a lot of ways.

- Andrew