More confirmation from Toyota on next gen 86

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Stephen W.

Read this Road and Track article and all will be revealed.
No One Knows What "Sports Car" Actually Means Anymore
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ar-definition/

Good article, although I have never quite understood the "has to be a convertible" portion of the discussion. I understand it's part of the definition but never really understood why.

Also, his insistence that the Mustang be called a sedan could apply to a lot of front engine cars. The definition of a sedan is a closed body car that has a 3 box configuration (one for engine, one for passengers and one for trunk in that order). That's just about any "pony car" as well as the 86. It would not apply to most hatches, but even some of them have a trunk "box" with the rear seat up.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

If you think their articles are bullshit you can email the editor in chief:

I'm curious what you think that would accomplish. Explain to me how it would help.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

86/BRZ a biggish/heavyish ... OK! You should check how much heavier are most of today cars in order to pass crash tests and regulations.

I was referring to the new Supra.

Also, improved crash standards can be met without increased weight because of advances in design, materials, etc.
FT86 weighs about the same as an S13 240SX, which was the late-80s/early-90s FT86.

[scuzzy]

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/03/...#slide-1354623

Via Autoblog according to Japan's "Best Car" magazine . . .

It's assumed Toyota's global platform will be the new base, still projected to use Subaru's FA24 sans turbo and projecting a 12 to 15 bump in horsepower with assumed "greater" torque gains.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Stephen W.

Read this Road and Track article and all will be revealed.
No One Knows What "Sports Car" Actually Means Anymore
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ar-definition/

There are two fatal flaws in his reasoning.

One, language evolves. Old words drop out of usage. New words come into being. Existing words shift meaning or change altogether. Merriam-Webster made 850 changes to their English dictionary in 2018 alone.

He says the definition of a sports car didn't change, that the cars did. The definition of a sports car most definitely did change, because the cars did. That's the way a living language works. We had sports cars. The cars changed. The classification stayed with them to include the changes, even if the SCCA couldn't keep up.

What we learn from those changes is that the traits we thought defined the sports car--two seats, convertible--actually didn't define it. Does turning the MGB into a GT change the essential character of the car? Of course not. "GT" was simply a subset of the sports car class. We figured out in the '60s that a sports car was a performance-oriented vehicle whose early examples just happened to have drop tops and two seats but whose more recent examples didn't. The language adapted to match reality.

Mustangs and Camaros also changed, but they didn't change into sports cars. They're still pony cars. As with sports cars, their name just changed with them. Pony cars have gotten lighter and have shifted emphasis from straight line performance to handling, but that doesn't make them sports cars. They still retain some undefinable essence that differentiates them.

I often argue that there's no such thing as a front wheel drive sports car. That's not because of any specific definition. It's because I grew up driving sports cars, and a FWD vehicle feels fundamentally different from a RWD vehicle. RWD is part of a sports car's essential character. Changing an MGB from a convertible to a GT doesn't change the essential character of the car, but making it a FWD certainly would.

The second flaw is in his silly example of why it's important to get the classifications correct. He says you wouldn't describe a kidnapper's Audi A7 sedan to the police as a coupe.

Okay, I'll buy that. People would describe it as what it is, a sedan. Or they'd just say it was an Audi, or some foreign four door.

If the kidnapper were driving a BRZ instead, how many people would describe it to the police as a GT?

None. Nobody would describe it that way to police. They would describe it as what it is, a sports car.

If they did call it a GT, how many police would even understand what they were trying to say? "You mean a Mustang GT? A Dodge Durango GT?"

Once the cop figured out what the hell you were trying to say, he'd respond, "Oh, you mean a sports car."

The distinction between sports car and GT is imaginary and meaningless.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

Mustangs and Camaros also changed, but they didn't change into sports cars. They're still pony cars. As with sports cars, their name just changed with them. Pony cars have gotten lighter and have shifted emphasis from straight line performance to handling, but that doesn't make them sports cars.

Actually...
Pony cars have gotten heavier. Original pony car was the 1964 Mustang, <3000 lb with a V8. The Mustang has gone WAY up and down in weight over the years, but for *many* years it undercut the Corvette on weight by about 100 lb. Then in the mid-90s they went to the "modular" engine which added a fair amount of weight, and then in the mid 2000s they went from "pony" car to big bloated muscle car imo... And the latest iteration actually went further UP in weight, now 3800+ lb.
Camaro/Firebird were GM's "pony cars", and for most of their lives they were only about 100 lb. heavier vs. the Corvette. Discontinued in 2002, then we got a new Camaro that followed the new Mustang approach of way bigger and way heavier. The latest "lighter" version is still >3750 lb. for a V8, a good 350 lb. over the old smaller, lighter-weight F-bodies which were generally ~3400 lb. vs. the Corvette at ~3300.

Also, handling was a pony car trait from the get-go, witness GT350 1st-gen Mustangs and Z/28 1st-gen Camaro, also Trans Am, AAR 'Cuda and Challenger T/A, etc. Mid-80s IROC-Z Camaro was declared "best-handling American car" at one point by Car and Driver.

Ideally, for me, the new "pony cars" *should* be a lot less like ginormous 2-door sedans and a lot more like V8 versions of the FT86!

[mazeroni]

Originally Posted by scuzzy

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/03/...#slide-1354623

Via Autoblog according to Japan's "Best Car" magazine . . .

It's assumed Toyota's global platform will be the new base, still projected to use Subaru's FA24 sans turbo and projecting a 12 to 15 bump in horsepower with assumed "greater" torque gains.

That doesn't add up. Is Toyota's TNGA platform compatible with Subaru motors? I'm gonna say no.

If they do show a concept car, people will need to bite their tongues and not get overly excited. It will likely be little more than a design exercise with a marketing slant towards "inspired by advancements made by Supra," with the main goal of focusing attention by to Supra. You won't get a single detail other then confirmation that it is still RWD and still has a manual.

You will still have 2-3 years before it shows up in dealer lots, unless they are literally just swapping the engine and doing another mild facelift. In that case, it could come much more quickly since they won't have to retool the production line.

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by ZDan

Also, handling was a pony car trait from the get-go, witness GT350 1st-gen Mustangs and Z/28 1st-gen Camaro, also Trans Am, AAR 'Cuda and Challenger T/A, etc.

Not really. Those cars were not initially designed for handling the way British and Italian sports cars were. The GT350 was what happens when you give a car that wasn't really designed for great handling to Carroll Shelby for a makeover, the exception that proves the rule. Generally Mustangs were huge, sloppy whales compared to my old Triumph.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Mid-80s IROC-Z Camaro was declared "best-handling American car" at one point by Car and Driver.

All that tells me is that:

1. Car and Driver was populated by morons if they thought that car would out-handle a Corvette, and

2. American cars in general didn't handle very well in the '80s.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I was referring to the new Supra.

Also, improved crash standards can be met without increased weight because of advances in design, materials, etc.
FT86 weighs about the same as an S13 240SX, which was the late-80s/early-90s FT86.

Yes the Supra is quite heavy, but it is also another category car. Much more in the grand tourer category. Subaru on the other side is quite an expert in the area of chassis and materials technology. Not a coincidence that they are building Boeing's 777X wings. Toyota was quite on the spot that they should build together an entry level performance and low cost lightweight sports car. Much more focused on handling than anything else.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo

Subaru E-Boxer; small electric motor mounted in the transmission, with a small battery pack in the trunk:

Electric motor output:
Power: 13.4 hp (14 PS; 10 kW)
Torque: 48.0 lb⋅ft (65 N⋅m; 7 kg⋅m)

Sounds perfect. But it adds 110kg to the forester , the 86 can probably get away with a much smaller battery and weaker motor controller though.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_FB_engine

https://www.subaru.ca/WebPage.aspx?W...ArticleID=9706

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I'm curious what you think that would accomplish. Explain to me how it would help.

cbf to be honest.

Here is an article from motoring.com.au that you might enjoy

https://www.motoring.com.au/how-aggr...age-505468121/

[extrashaky]

Originally Posted by Dirty Harry

cbf to be honest.

I don't know what that means or how it explains what contacting the editor will accomplish. What was the point of telling me to contact the editor?

[Dirty Harry]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

I don't know what that means or how it explains what contacting the editor will accomplish. What was the point of telling me to contact the editor?

Not sure if you’re serious but:

cbf = can’t be f**ked or couldn’t be f**ked. Handy acronym.

[86MLR]

Call them what you like, the only type that really matters is the type your car sits in competing in motorsport events.


Everything else is ego masturbation.