follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Delicious Tuning
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB > Off-Topic Discussions > Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions

Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions Discuss all other cars and automotive news here.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-20-2019, 04:58 PM   #449
Spuds
The Dictater
 
Spuds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Drives: '13 Red Scion FRS
Location: PA, USA
Posts: 2,948
Thanks: 6,058
Thanked 2,225 Times in 1,390 Posts
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
I wouldn't say the 86 is low on performance per dollar spent. It isn't the most powerful in a straight line, but it can hold its own in performance to cars that are much more expensive. Moreover, there is the intangibles like how it makes a person feel or how it behaves that increase its value. The 86 is also affordable, but many will eventually graduate from the 86 to more expensive cars as their incomes grow, so it isn't an odd thing to speculate on more expensive cars. We also have guys here who have moved from Lotus' or Cayman's to the 86 because it is a cheaper track car or because they can get better performance for an equal investment after tuning/modifications, so cross shopping talk may seem odd or out of place, but it isn't.
Performance comparisons must be numeric by nature. A stock FRS/GT86/BRZ of any trim loses most of them to similarly priced sporty cars. However, there is far more to value than performance per dollar, but that is a much more difficult discussion to have, and therefore doesn't sell well. My point was that we of all people should understand that because we chose a car that loses the performance per dollar argument damn near every time. So I found it funny, and perhaps a bit ironic, that some here are suggesting that the Corvette is superior to all others simply from a performance/dollar comparison.
Spuds is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Spuds For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (07-20-2019), Ultramaroon (07-21-2019), WolfpackS2k (07-24-2019)
Old 07-20-2019, 05:10 PM   #450
J1Avs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Drives: 2018 BRZ tS
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 325
Thanks: 192
Thanked 169 Times in 90 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
All it takes is a bit of research.
Stage 1 cams are one better than Stage 0 cams but one less than Stage 2 cams.



Here is a pic of 2 Stage cams.


Attachment 179630
Perk of GM - having their factory warranty covering you on the track. I wouldn’t touch anything except maybe a catback exhaust if I was picking up one of GM’s performance cars.

IMO - A track warranty (if you track) is too HUGE to pass up to be chasing some minor gains in HP (particularly if trying to argue a modded C7 over a C8). If Subaru told me I could have tracked my car and kept my warranty on my tS, my car would be in a very different situation.

I know at least one of you is going to mention committing insurance fraud, so just bite your tongue/hold your breathe if you think you can use a factory warranty when tracking your twin.
J1Avs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2019, 05:23 PM   #451
Captain Snooze
Because compromise ®
 
Captain Snooze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Red Herring
Location: australia
Posts: 5,109
Thanks: 2,417
Thanked 4,520 Times in 2,156 Posts
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by J1Avs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Snooze View Post
All it takes is a bit of research.
Stage 1 cams are one better than Stage 0 cams but one less than Stage 2 cams.



Here is a pic of 2 Stage cams.


Attachment 179630
Perk of GM - having their factory warranty covering you on the track. I wouldn’t touch anything except maybe a catback exhaust if I was picking up one of GM’s performance cars.

IMO - A track warranty (if you track) is too HUGE to pass up to be chasing some minor gains in HP (particularly if trying to argue a modded C7 over a C8). If Subaru told me I could have tracked my car and kept my warranty on my tS, my car would be in a very different situation.

I know at least one of you is going to mention committing insurance fraud, so just bite your tongue/hold your breathe if you think you can use a factory warranty when tracking your twin.
Huh?

I don't understand why you have quoted my flippant post.
__________________
My car is completely stock except for all the mods.

Captain Snooze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2019, 06:23 PM   #452
Summerwolf
Panda Trueno
 
Summerwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Drives: 2014 Wrb limited
Location: North Indiana
Posts: 3,100
Thanks: 1,872
Thanked 2,152 Times in 1,205 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
My bad, I guess they speak a different language in Chevy land. It means a cam that is to the stock cam what a "stage 1" on a Japanese car would be to the stock cam, slightly more duration and lift to shift the power curve upward.

Around 500hp on the LT1 is what I am reading from reasonable cam grinds. The C8 probably has somewhat similar cam specs. Any more intake duration/overlap would probably produce unacceptable loss of torque and worse idle to the OEM. The OEM is also not going to be able to use different headers since they have emissions to worry about.

How is 495hp @ 6450rpm not close to maxed out (rev limit is at 6600)? The C6 Z06 only spun to 7000rpm with titanium valves, this engine is not going to spin any faster without that kind of trick.
It's very clear you know next to nothing about the ls / lt platform. If you're talking about "stage 1 cams" (only one btw) why are you bringing in OEM concerns?

That engine isnt close to being "maxed out" from the factory. Tuning is a question mark on this new platform but a cam swap and some headers and tuning can easily net some real power traditionally. There have been "recipes" to make 500 whp with basic naturally aspirated mods on the ls1 for years.... we are well beyond that at this point with the current generation of motors.

Also they'll use that motor as a platform to build on and a hand built version or a boosted version will come out in a couple years as a higher trim making more hp from the factory. Traditional gm stuff.
Summerwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Summerwolf For This Useful Post:
Tokay444 (07-21-2019)
Old 07-20-2019, 10:49 PM   #453
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: 2000 MR2 Spyder
Location: United States of America
Posts: 5,064
Thanks: 253
Thanked 873 Times in 639 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerwolf View Post
It's very clear you know next to nothing about the ls / lt platform. If you're talking about "stage 1 cams" (only one btw) why are you bringing in OEM concerns?

That engine isnt close to being "maxed out" from the factory. Tuning is a question mark on this new platform but a cam swap and some headers and tuning can easily net some real power traditionally. There have been "recipes" to make 500 whp with basic naturally aspirated mods on the ls1 for years.... we are well beyond that at this point with the current generation of motors.

Also they'll use that motor as a platform to build on and a hand built version or a boosted version will come out in a couple years as a higher trim making more hp from the factory. Traditional gm stuff.
Yes I admit I don't know much about the platform...let me clarify, my claim is:
This is close to as much power as Chevy can give you in an NA engine from the factory without titanium valves.

OEM concerns because...The more power it makes from the factory, the less bang for buck you get from swapping in aftermarket stuff, which is expensive. The comparison with a cammed C7 is because the C7 is cheaper.

It's clear to me that there's much less to gain from a cam swap than in the LT1, given how the power has moved to the higher rpm ranges, and it's probably a bad idea to "add more cam" given where the power peak sits. I would not mess with the intake ports on a direct injection engine. More duration reduces low end torque, more lift reduces low speed efficiency and stresses the valvetrain more. My guess is this is an LT1 with slightly modified intake/combustion chamber and slightly longer duration intake cam, while the LT1 has a somewhat conservative cam in it.

Headers yes, but that's not something the factory can do, and it's not emissions legal in states that care about it. C7 and C8 are on equal footing here, they both can pick up similar gains for similar money.

Last edited by serialk11r; 07-20-2019 at 11:02 PM.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2019, 07:54 AM   #454
Summerwolf
Panda Trueno
 
Summerwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Drives: 2014 Wrb limited
Location: North Indiana
Posts: 3,100
Thanks: 1,872
Thanked 2,152 Times in 1,205 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
Yes I admit I don't know much about the platform...let me clarify, my claim is:
This is close to as much power as Chevy can give you in an NA engine from the factory without titanium valves.

OEM concerns because...The more power it makes from the factory, the less bang for buck you get from swapping in aftermarket stuff, which is expensive. The comparison with a cammed C7 is because the C7 is cheaper.

It's clear to me that there's much less to gain from a cam swap than in the LT1, given how the power has moved to the higher rpm ranges, and it's probably a bad idea to "add more cam" given where the power peak sits. I would not mess with the intake ports on a direct injection engine. More duration reduces low end torque, more lift reduces low speed efficiency and stresses the valvetrain more. My guess is this is an LT1 with slightly modified intake/combustion chamber and slightly longer duration intake cam, while the LT1 has a somewhat conservative cam in it.

Headers yes, but that's not something the factory can do, and it's not emissions legal in states that care about it. C7 and C8 are on equal footing here, they both can pick up similar gains for similar money.
Just do some research. There will be cam options available for every powerband, there have always been aftermarket valve train options, literally everything you said doesn't apply to the general "ls/lt" platform historically.

Why is titanium valves a big deal in your statement anyways, GM has used all sort of materials from the factory and the aftermarket has any option available.

Point is, how can anything be "clear to you" when gm hasnt realeased specs for the lt2? Nobody knows what's been changed or cam specs yet. Safe to say it's not a motor that's maxed out from the factory though. Based on history at least.
Summerwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2019, 10:05 AM   #455
gtpvette
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Drives: 2015 FRS - FFR GTM
Location: Key Largo, FL
Posts: 515
Thanks: 169
Thanked 498 Times in 237 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Speaking of headers... these are pictures from the Chevy website. 2020 Corvette motor
Attached Images
  
__________________

GTM - Still under construction - 2015 FR-S - 2016 Vette Z51
gtpvette is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to gtpvette For This Useful Post:
Irace86.2.0 (07-21-2019), Rampage (07-21-2019), serialk11r (07-21-2019), Sportsguy83 (08-07-2019), Summerwolf (07-21-2019), unhappymeal (07-21-2019)
Old 07-21-2019, 11:29 AM   #456
unhappymeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Drives: 2018 Miata RF, 2017 Golf R
Location: Ancaster, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 250
Thanks: 163
Thanked 267 Times in 114 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpvette View Post
Speaking of headers... these are pictures from the Chevy website. 2020 Corvette motor
Gorgeous. They should've revealed that on July 4th.
unhappymeal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2019, 12:40 PM   #457
serialk11r
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Drives: 2000 MR2 Spyder
Location: United States of America
Posts: 5,064
Thanks: 253
Thanked 873 Times in 639 Posts
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerwolf View Post
Just do some research. There will be cam options available for every powerband, there have always been aftermarket valve train options, literally everything you said doesn't apply to the general "ls/lt" platform historically.

Why is titanium valves a big deal in your statement anyways, GM has used all sort of materials from the factory and the aftermarket has any option available.

Point is, how can anything be "clear to you" when gm hasnt realeased specs for the lt2? Nobody knows what's been changed or cam specs yet. Safe to say it's not a motor that's maxed out from the factory though. Based on history at least.
It's naturally aspirated...the specific torque (and also features list) has not changed enough to suggest any significant changes in design, the rev limit has not gone up much, and the power peak is right next to the rev limit, peak torque is at a relatively high 78% of rev limit. The cams are fixed profile with phasing adjustment. Those things tell you a good amount, the big unknown is whether the intake manifold has variable length runners and whether or not they've changed the runner length, and also what tweaks to the exhaust have contributed. It could be the same cams with a very high-rpm oriented intake manifold, fairly aggressive cams with the same intake (that would be like the twins, which have a pretty long intake runner length giving you that 3000rpm local torque peak, dip at 3500, and a second peak high up from the high duration cams), or a mix.

495hp @ 6400rpm is 80hp/L at a specific torque of a little under 90Nm/L. A 2 valve/cylinder direct injection engine is not going to do much better than that from the factory, since they have to put crappy short headers on for emissions.

Note that the C6 Z06 produced very similar peak numbers at similar rpms with 13% more displacement but without VVT. The design differences (MPFI vs DI, VVT being the most important) you would expect to account for all of that. Essentially, through cam phasing the max retard intake/max advance exhaust position is "more aggressive" than the LS7 pushing the power higher up, and they've possibly done work to the intake ports to trade off a little low end combustion stability for flow.

Titanium valves are a big deal because they add several k to the engine's cost and would indicate a much more serious effort at performance. If it lets the engine go to say 7300rpm, I'd expect 530-560hp @6.9-7krpm depending on how the intake manifold is set up.

I'm not saying this engine won't go higher than that (more money always helps), I'm just saying this is a pretty good effort from the factory considering they didn't spend crazy money.

Last edited by serialk11r; 07-21-2019 at 12:56 PM.
serialk11r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2019, 01:31 PM   #458
Irace86.2.0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Drives: Q5 + BRZ + M796
Location: Santa Rosa, Ca
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 1,195
Thanked 846 Times in 563 Posts
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
There are many more videos...

__________________
Irace86.2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Irace86.2.0 For This Useful Post:
humfrz (07-21-2019)
Old 07-21-2019, 02:15 PM   #459
Dadhawk
1st86 Driver!
 
Dadhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Drives: "Olivia" my Firestorm 6AT FR-S
Location: Powder Springs, GA
Posts: 12,063
Thanks: 21,196
Thanked 11,524 Times in 5,674 Posts
Mentioned: 113 Post(s)
Tagged: 4 Thread(s)
I am eating my words...it's better looking than I expected...its cheaper than I expected...its faster than I expected...the interior is better than I expected....

I was hoping this would drive down C7 prices (and it will) but now I have to think long and hard because supercar....
__________________

Visit my Owner's Journal where I wax philosophic on all things FR-S
Post your 86 or see others in front of a(n) (in)famous landmark.
What fits in your 86? Show us the "Junk In Your Trunk".

Last edited by Dadhawk; 07-21-2019 at 06:24 PM.
Dadhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Dadhawk For This Useful Post:
FR-S.13 (07-21-2019), funwheeldrive (07-21-2019), HachiRokuX (07-21-2019), Lantanafrs2 (07-21-2019), maslin (07-21-2019), Rampage (07-21-2019), why? (07-22-2019)
Old 07-21-2019, 02:32 PM   #460
ermax
Senior Member
 
ermax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Drives: 2013 FR-S 6MT Raven
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 2,088
Thanks: 685
Thanked 1,589 Times in 952 Posts
Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
I read an article that makes it sound like a manual isn’t in the foreseeable future if ever. The Supra doesn’t stand a chance being so close in price to this thing. Seems a manual gearbox would at least give them one thing to market with.
ermax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2019, 02:38 PM   #461
Summerwolf
Panda Trueno
 
Summerwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Drives: 2014 Wrb limited
Location: North Indiana
Posts: 3,100
Thanks: 1,872
Thanked 2,152 Times in 1,205 Posts
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by serialk11r View Post
It's naturally aspirated...the specific torque (and also features list) has not changed enough to suggest any significant changes in design, the rev limit has not gone up much, and the power peak is right next to the rev limit, peak torque is at a relatively high 78% of rev limit. The cams are fixed profile with phasing adjustment. Those things tell you a good amount, the big unknown is whether the intake manifold has variable length runners and whether or not they've changed the runner length, and also what tweaks to the exhaust have contributed. It could be the same cams with a very high-rpm oriented intake manifold, fairly aggressive cams with the same intake (that would be like the twins, which have a pretty long intake runner length giving you that 3000rpm local torque peak, dip at 3500, and a second peak high up from the high duration cams), or a mix.

495hp @ 6400rpm is 80hp/L at a specific torque of a little under 90Nm/L. A 2 valve/cylinder direct injection engine is not going to do much better than that from the factory, since they have to put crappy short headers on for emissions.

Note that the C6 Z06 produced very similar peak numbers at similar rpms with 13% more displacement but without VVT. The design differences (MPFI vs DI, VVT being the most important) you would expect to account for all of that. Essentially, through cam phasing the max retard intake/max advance exhaust position is "more aggressive" than the LS7 pushing the power higher up, and they've possibly done work to the intake ports to trade off a little low end combustion stability for flow.

Titanium valves are a big deal because they add several k to the engine's cost and would indicate a much more serious effort at performance. If it lets the engine go to say 7300rpm, I'd expect 530-560hp @6.9-7krpm depending on how the intake manifold is set up.

I'm not saying this engine won't go higher than that (more money always helps), I'm just saying this is a pretty good effort from the factory considering they didn't spend crazy money.
CAM, cam. It has one. The motor will enjoy a variety of aftermarket options as well as oncoming, probable upgrades / changes from the factory. It's no where near maxed out.
Summerwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Summerwolf For This Useful Post:
maslin (07-21-2019), Sportsguy83 (08-07-2019)
Old 07-21-2019, 02:55 PM   #462
Jordanwolf
¿¿¿¿
 
Jordanwolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Drives: 2017 900whp beast
Location: Otnorot Canadia
Posts: 1,831
Thanks: 531
Thanked 847 Times in 590 Posts
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dadhawk View Post
I am eating my words...it's better looking than I expected...its cheaper than I expected...its faster than I expected...the interior is better than I expected....

I was hoping this would drive down C7 prices (and it will) but now I have to think long an hard because supercar....
Gear box .. if I could, I would try finding a C7 for a steal with manual.
__________________
I have come to HUG YOU
BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
Jordanwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jordanwolf For This Useful Post:
Dadhawk (07-21-2019)
 
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Chevy Bolt? What do you think? jsimon7777 Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 41 09-02-2016 03:38 PM
Mid-Engine C8 Corvette Mule Spotted Sideways&Smiling FR-S / BRZ vs.... 16 01-09-2015 10:30 PM
BRZ vs Chevy SS Razz FR-S / BRZ vs.... 109 03-07-2013 09:09 PM
Ford and Chevy AeroWRX FR-S / BRZ vs.... 23 02-24-2012 04:45 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.