Toyota Supra Alleged Revival: 2015.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Horseshit

Mk1-Mk2 Supras were Celicas with bigger motors stuck in them.

Affordable sports cars (cheaper than Corvettes or Porsches) that punched above their weight, the Mk5 is a return to form.

The Celica name was used on a few models like the Celica Camry, but don’t be fooled; the Supra was much more than the Celica with a longer hood n engine. Read up:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Supra

Also, check your sources on those prices... $40k+...

https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...and-new.30936/

1998 C5 base Corvette with 350hp and 350tq...started at $38k...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...-the-year/amp/

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gymratter

^why is it not relevant? it out performances your $90k+ LC500.

the Supra competed with cars like the 300zx, 3000GT, and RX7. even back then it was priced like $20k less than the NSX. A80's pricing was a little high because of the of rising yen. the car was cheaper in Japan, hence why they sold like x3 as much overseas.

It is not relevant in the sense that the car is not an example of Toyota’s capabilities or engineering.

The LC500 is a flagship luxury grand touring sports car. They took the same 2UR engine in the RCF, ISF, GSF and put it in a larger vehicle. Track times is not what the LC500 is about. The LFA was about track performance.

This is true. It did compete with those cars. And enthusiasts threw a fit when the 350z and RX8 came out because they were seen as a step back from their predecessors, and they were. Nissan and Mazda took a step back with these models instead of moving forward for several reasons. Nissan decided to move forward with the GTR, as did Acura with the NSX. Toyota could have used the 2UR with turbos in a unique chassis and that would have felt more like a Supra to many, even without the straight six. They could have omitted the turbos and made a smaller and lighter RCF and people probably would whine too, but they would see the similarities between that and the Supra/Soarer of the past.

This Supra is great, but I’m just giving context to the grief from many die hard Toyota fans. Imagine if Ford made a Mustang with a LS or with a 2UR. What would the Ford guys be saying?

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Also, check your sources on those prices... $40k+...

https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...and-new.30936/

1998 C5 base Corvette with 350hp and 350tq...started at $38k...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mot...-the-year/amp/

1985 Supra P-Type MSRP: $16,558 HP:161
1985 Corvette Base MSRP: $24,891 HP: 230
1985 Porsche 911 Base MSRP: $32,500 HP: 207

For its first two generations of Supra, Toyota officially names its six-cylinder coupe the Celica Supra. The name hints at what the early Supra shares with the four-cylinder Celica underneath: a common chassis.
[...]
While we appreciate the first-generation Celica Supra for its reasonable power and modern amenities, its tight cabin and numb steering make it difficult to love. Fortunately, Toyota takes our words to heart and blesses the Mark 2 Celica Supra with the sort of driving dynamics that would help it go on to snag two of our 10Best Cars awards (one in 1983 and another in 1984). We also loved our long-term ’83 example.

The second-gen Celica Supra bows for the 1982 model year and swaps the old model’s live rear axle for independent semi-trailing arms, a setup that helps earn it fourth place—beating a Ferrari, a Lotus, and two Porsches—in a 1984 Car and Driver comparison test seeking the best-handling imported car. And in 1985, the Toyota finishes second to the Audi Coupe GT in an eight-car battle to determine the best sports coupe in America. Underhood, a new twin-cam 2.8-liter inline-six corrals 145 horses, making it 29 ponies stronger than the single-cam unit it replaced.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...supra-history/

The Supra first peaked as a car that was 2/3 the price of a Corvette and 1/2 the price of a 911 and punched above it's weight before Toyota started pouring money into the chassis to make the third and fourth generations, and even the third gen was still significantly cheaper than the competition (~$23k with options vs. the $28k starting price of an '87 C4). The Mk4 is the anomaly of the Supra family, not the standard. The Mk5 is a return to form undercutting the American and German Gran Tourers by platform sharing delivering great performance value.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Horseshit

Mk1-Mk2 Supras were Celicas with bigger motors stuck in them.

Affordable sports cars (cheaper than Corvettes or Porsches) that punched above their weight, the Mk5 is a return to form.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

1985 Supra P-Type MSRP: $16,558 HP:161
1985 Corvette Base MSRP: $24,891 HP: 230
1985 Porsche 911 Base MSRP: $32,500 HP: 207


https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...supra-history/

The Supra first peaked as a car that was 2/3 the price of a Corvette and 1/2 the price of a 911 and punched above it's weight before Toyota started pouring money into the chassis to make the third and fourth generations, and even the third gen was still significantly cheaper than the competition (~$23k with options vs. the $28k starting price of an '87 C4). The Mk4 is the anomaly of the Supra family, not the standard. The Mk5 is a return to form undercutting the American and German Gran Tourers by platform sharing delivering great performance value.

Again, the first gen Supra wasn't just a Celica with a larger motor. It had more amenities and more luxury options than the Celica. Yes, it was built on the same chassis, but as you quoted above, by the second gen the car really gained notoriety, and again, was more than a Celica with a bigger motor stuck in them. More to read:

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/toyota...-ar163624.html

The MKIII was also up there in price too. Check the sticker prices and compare it to the C4 Corvette. Remember too that this was for the 7MGTE and not the 1JZGTE that was in Japan.

https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...en-new.253913/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevro...R-1_(1990–1995)

You do realize that a base C7 Stingray is $56k, right? Do you really believe anyone will be actually be buying a MKV Supra at $50k, and even if there isn't the typical dealer markups on the MSRP, how is a $6k difference great value when the base Corvette has 450hp/450tq from an NA 6.2L, has a manual option, and is lighter?

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You do realize that a base C7 Stingray is $56k, right? Do you really believe anyone will be actually be buying a MKV Supra at $50k, and even if there isn't the typical dealer markups on the MSRP, how is a $6k difference great value when the base Corvette has 450hp/450tq from an NA 6.2L, has a manual option, and is lighter?

The car is already sold out in EU, AU, and JP. We could also ask why would anyone want to buy a 86/BRZ over a cheaper and more powerful Mustang and Camaro. If power and price are the only factors we could also ask why would anyone want a Cayman, Boxster, SLC, F-Type, TT, Z4, etc. over a C7. Different strokes for different folks. When it comes down to it this is a niche product just like the 86. Toyota isn't looking to sale 20k-30k units a year like with the Corvette. We also need to keep in mind that the C7 is ending production. Some media outlets are reporting that the upcoming C8 will be anywhere from $65k-$70k. It's also worth noting that the C8 is rumored to be auto only. If true, I don't blame GM, roughly only 20% or so of C7 buyers chose the manual.

[Tcoat]

I must point out that the title of this thread is now so out of date that it has become irony.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

The car is already sold out in EU, AU, and JP. We could also ask why would anyone want to buy a 86/BRZ over a cheaper and more powerful Mustang and Camaro. If power and price are the only factors we could also ask why would anyone want a Cayman, Boxster, SLC, F-Type, TT, Z4, etc. over a C7. Different strokes for different folks. When it comes down to it this is a niche product just like the 86. Toyota isn't looking to sale 20k-30k units a year like with the Corvette. We also need to keep in mind that the C7 is ending production. Some media outlets are reporting that the upcoming C8 will be anywhere from $65k-$70k. It's also worth noting that the C8 is rumored to be auto only. If true, I don't blame GM, roughly only 20% or so of C7 buyers chose the manual.

You are quoting me out of context. I wasn’t dismissing the value of the Supra to perspective cross shoppers or suggesting there wouldn’t be interest. This was all in the context of helping shed light on the grievances many enthusiasts have with the MKV Supra, and it was part of a larger retort to the assertion from another member that the Supra was a cheap sports car, a souped up Celica, that the MKIV Supra was an anomaly, that the Supra didn’t reflect the best of Toyota in a sports car form, etc., that the MKV Supra is a shift back to these things. Read everything, not just one paragraph—at least to post 242.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I must point out that the title of this thread is now so out of date that it has become irony.

True but does anyone here actually care about the Z4 outside of the context that it shares stuff with the Supra?

[gymratter]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

It is not relevant in the sense that the car is not an example of Toyota’s capabilities or engineering.

The LC500 is a flagship luxury grand touring sports car. They took the same 2UR engine in the RCF, ISF, GSF and put it in a larger vehicle. Track times is not what the LC500 is about. The LFA was about track performance.

This is true. It did compete with those cars. And enthusiasts threw a fit when the 350z and RX8 came out because they were seen as a step back from their predecessors, and they were. Nissan and Mazda took a step back with these models instead of moving forward for several reasons. Nissan decided to move forward with the GTR, as did Acura with the NSX. Toyota could have used the 2UR with turbos in a unique chassis and that would have felt more like a Supra to many, even without the straight six. They could have omitted the turbos and made a smaller and lighter RCF and people probably would whine too, but they would see the similarities between that and the Supra/Soarer of the past.

This Supra is great, but I’m just giving context to the grief from many die hard Toyota fans. Imagine if Ford made a Mustang with a LS or with a 2UR. What would the Ford guys be saying?

yes i agree, but is that a bad thing? Toyota’s capabilities / engineering = RCF and LC to under-perform when compare to M4 and 8er.

exactly, so my question is would you guys rather the A90 underpin a full size 4,300lbs+ coupe?

i wouldn't say the A90 is a step backwards from the A80. the new car outperforms it's predecessor. also watch guff's review video.

if a Mustang w/ 2UR is made, maybe the Ford guys would say no more fix or repair daily. :p

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by gymratter

yes i agree, but is that a bad thing? Toyota’s capabilities / engineering = RCF and LC to under-perform when compare to M4 and 8er.

exactly, so my question is would you guys rather the A90 underpin a full size 4,300lbs+ coupe?

i wouldn't say the A90 is a step backwards from the A80. the new car outperforms it's predecessor. also watch guff's review video.

if a Mustang w/ 2UR is made, maybe the Ford guys would say no more fix or repair daily. :p

Ford did an awesome thing and built the Voodoo motor, and many Ford diehards complained about the loss of the V8 rumble. When Ford went IRS on the Mustang the diehards freaked too. Manufactures can't please everyone, just like Toyota couldn't please the diehard Supra fans. I'm not one of these diehards. I was just describing their complaints, and like the Ford guys, they have a point behind their grievances.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

The car is already sold out in EU, AU, and JP. We could also ask why would anyone want to buy a 86/BRZ over a cheaper and more powerful Mustang and Camaro. If power and price are the only factors we could also ask why would anyone want a Cayman, Boxster, SLC, F-Type, TT, Z4, etc. over a C7. Different strokes for different folks. When it comes down to it this is a niche product just like the 86. Toyota isn't looking to sale 20k-30k units a year like with the Corvette. We also need to keep in mind that the C7 is ending production. Some media outlets are reporting that the upcoming C8 will be anywhere from $65k-$70k. It's also worth noting that the C8 is rumored to be auto only. If true, I don't blame GM, roughly only 20% or so of C7 buyers chose the manual.

I'm not saying the Supra won't succeed, but it's laughable to state that the car is "sold out" when the reason for being sold out is ridiculously small production allocation to many countries. Plenty of facts/points to be made, this is definitely not one.

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

I'm not saying the Supra won't succeed, but it's laughable to state that the car is "sold out" when the reason for being sold out is ridiculously small production allocation to many countries. Plenty of facts/points to be made, this is definitely not one.

900 units for the EU in the first year (really +/- 6 months) is a good number imo. Toyota only sold 1,698 MKIVs in the EU throughout it's whole life-cycle.

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/specs.htm#PRODUCTION

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by vh_supra26

900 units for the EU in the first year (really +/- 6 months) is a good number imo. Toyota only sold 1,698 MKIVs in the EU throughout it's whole life-cycle.

http://mkiv.supras.org.nz/specs.htm#PRODUCTION

The MKIV and the MKV are valued differently. The MKIV turbo had an msrp of $50k in 1996, which is before dealer markups and options. That is equivalent to $82k in 2019 using an inflation calculator. I already posted a link with MKIV window stickers from supra forums, but here is is again:

https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...and-new.30936/

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/toyota...-ar163626.html

I have no idea if emissions or other factors limited where the Supra could be sold in Europe, or if the price was even higher than it was here in the states, but just for comparison, here is how the BMW Z3, Z4 and current Z4 is selling in Europe (note: 2019 Z4 sales from January to May in Europe exceed Supra allocations for the whole year). Remember too that the MSRP of a Z3 in 1998 was cheaper than a 1998 MKIV Supra, and the Z4 now is more expensive than the MKV Supra. This suggests the Supra could sell even better in Europe than the new Z4:

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...ta/bmw/bmw-z3/

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...ta/bmw/bmw-z4/

https://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-z3/

[vh_supra26]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

The MKIV and the MKV are valued differently. The MKIV turbo had an msrp of $50k in 1996, which is before dealer markups and options. That is equivalent to $82k in 2019 using an inflation calculator. I already posted a link with MKIV window stickers from supra forums, but here is is again:

https://www.supraforums.com/threads/...and-new.30936/

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/toyota...-ar163626.html

I have no idea if emissions or other factors limited where the Supra could be sold in Europe, or if the price was even higher than it was here in the states, but just for comparison, here is how the BMW Z3, Z4 and current Z4 is selling in Europe (note: 2019 Z4 sales from January to May in Europe exceed Supra allocations for the whole year). Remember too that the MSRP of a Z3 in 1998 was cheaper than a 1998 MKIV Supra, and the Z4 now is more expensive than the MKV Supra. This suggests the Supra could sell even better in Europe than the new Z4:

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...ta/bmw/bmw-z3/

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...ta/bmw/bmw-z4/

https://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-z3/

In 93 the NA Supra was $33,900. That is $60k in todays money. Now the new base Supra starts around $50k and $54k for premium. Not that much differences imo. Just wait for the track model that is the equivalence to the GTE MKIV.

I'm not too up to date regarding A80 EU Supra pricing and etc.

According to BMWUK and ToyotaUK the Supra actually cost more.

Z4: £49,050
Supra: £52,695.00