follow ft86club on our blog, twitter or facebook.
FT86CLUB
Ft86Club
Speed By Design
Register Garage Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB > Technical Topics > Engine, Exhaust, Transmission

Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-04-2012, 05:02 PM   #197
WingsofWar
MODERATOR-SAMA
 
WingsofWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Swagtron Scooter
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,685
Thanks: 345
Thanked 1,561 Times in 524 Posts
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahraini86 View Post
I the issue here is the limitation of the DI system, not the compression. Can't see a budget way to make the DI work effeciently at higher boost!
When it comes to boost, DI actually supplements the fuel needs of the forced air. So its actually not a limitation especially as a D4-S applications.

I think the biggest mistake people are going to make when boosting this car is lowering the compression to accept more boost to the point where the DI becomes useless. DI's biggest advantage is providing a weak stratified mixture at all loads and still provide the necessarily homogeneous fuel mixture for TQ and performance. But to make DI work properly is using that high compression and piston swirl shape. To compensate we would need change the injection profile and cycle somehow to retain that homogeneous mixture otherwise it would be just shooting way to lean to warrant any benefits.

But any mistakes can also be masked by increasing the flow to the port injector.

We arn't anywhere close to maxing out DI injectors..and the port injectors still provide good intake fuel certain loads and boosting anywhere from 7lbs-12lbs on a appropriately sized turbo, sounds pretty good using factory parts with a marginal tune no more invasive than a simple timing and fuel correction at the start of powerband.

If we are looking at boosts around 15lbs-20lbs, or upwards of 30lbs...there is no cheap way regardless of any direction you look to support those numbers digitally and physically.
__________________
WingsofWar is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to WingsofWar For This Useful Post:
Bahraini86 (06-04-2012)
Old 06-04-2012, 06:12 PM   #198
86purity
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 95 MR-2 Turbo, 08 Evo X GSR
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 29
Thanks: 8
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
DI certainly lessens the dangers when it comes to boosting a high compression engine. I suppose the limits still have to be explored as DI is relatively new. As far as the D-4S system goes, using those two injectors in concert should be a major advantage in tuning. The need to upgrade to larger injectors should be much higher in the tuning process as opposed to single injector setups. I'm really, really curious to see what happens when a company like Cosworth throws every trick in the book at the FA20 head! That high compression and D-4S system may be a blessing in disguise when it comes to building a NA beast motor!!
86purity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 01:54 AM   #199
GirlyScions
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: Mazda3
Location: PA
Posts: 61
Thanks: 5
Thanked 19 Times in 10 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
When it comes to boost, DI actually supplements the fuel needs of the forced air. So its actually not a limitation especially as a D4-S applications.

I think the biggest mistake people are going to make when boosting this car is lowering the compression to accept more boost to the point where the DI becomes useless. DI's biggest advantage is providing a weak stratified mixture at all loads and still provide the necessarily homogeneous fuel mixture for TQ and performance. But to make DI work properly is using that high compression and piston swirl shape. To compensate we would need change the injection profile and cycle somehow to retain that homogeneous mixture otherwise it would be just shooting way to lean to warrant any benefits.

But any mistakes can also be masked by increasing the flow to the port injector.

We arn't anywhere close to maxing out DI injectors..and the port injectors still provide good intake fuel certain loads and boosting anywhere from 7lbs-12lbs on a appropriately sized turbo, sounds pretty good using factory parts with a marginal tune no more invasive than a simple timing and fuel correction at the start of powerband.

If we are looking at boosts around 15lbs-20lbs, or upwards of 30lbs...there is no cheap way regardless of any direction you look to support those numbers digitally and physically.
On the fa20 turbo engine showed for the new wrxs (I think) wasn't using the DI. Something makes me think a stock boosted brz wont include DI
GirlyScions is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 03:11 AM   #200
noAE86
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: ae86, etc..
Location: CHCH new zealand
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyScions View Post
On the fa20 turbo engine showed for the new wrxs (I think) wasn't using the DI. Something makes me think a stock boosted brz wont include DI
depending on how complicated tuning/cracking DI, i think this would be a good option,

ditching the DI system and just running 4 upgraded port injectors seems to be the least headache solution (but counter technological advancement)
that would also mean using conventional piston tops 9.5 to 1 and the aftermarket ECU's we have on the market now, and wait for a massive R&D spike from companys to include DI tuning in there software, maybe a motec m800 changed with 4 feeds controlling the port injectors and 4 other feeds controlling DI injectors,

does anybody know if the DI injector maps are a gradual change over or is it quite abrupt? sort of a slight overlap of the two injector maps? i would imagine a lot of trouble for boost tuning if it was quite abrupt, leaning/spiking
noAE86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 04:30 AM   #201
WingsofWar
MODERATOR-SAMA
 
WingsofWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Swagtron Scooter
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,685
Thanks: 345
Thanked 1,561 Times in 524 Posts
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyScions View Post
On the fa20 turbo engine showed for the new wrxs (I think) wasn't using the DI. Something makes me think a stock boosted brz wont include DI
We were shown the FA16DIT at the most recent unveiling of subaru products. Which is a FA variant 1.6 Liter Direct Injection Turbo. We have yet to see the FA205/FA20DIT physically but we are confident its coming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noAE86 View Post
depending on how complicated tuning/cracking DI, i think this would be a good option,

ditching the DI system and just running 4 upgraded port injectors seems to be the least headache solution (but counter technological advancement)
that would also mean using conventional piston tops 9.5 to 1 and the aftermarket ECU's we have on the market now, and wait for a massive R&D spike from companys to include DI tuning in there software, maybe a motec m800 changed with 4 feeds controlling the port injectors and 4 other feeds controlling DI injectors,

does anybody know if the DI injector maps are a gradual change over or is it quite abrupt? sort of a slight overlap of the two injector maps? i would imagine a lot of trouble for boost tuning if it was quite abrupt, leaning/spiking
Right, but at the point of ditching the DI and the cost to make up for lost primary fuel characteristics...might as well swap the engine for an EJ207-EJ257.

Although i haven't seen the real FA20 maps, port fuel looks like it shuts off abruptly, but doesn't seem to effect AFRs considering at medium load the DI is performing at its best.On dynos we are seeing 10AFRS at WOT optimal powerband on a homogeneous mixture from a weak stratified charge. A mixture profile which port fuel will never achieve.
__________________
WingsofWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #202
noAE86
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: ae86, etc..
Location: CHCH new zealand
Posts: 76
Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
unfortunately in some countries your not allowed to swap engines out side of what was available from factory, this includes the country im in now, china, the only real inspections they do here is engine code matching, (for road cars)

and in new zealand where i'd do most of my racing, the racing class may specify stock block, porting, FI and internal work allowed but has to be stock block maybe head, unless i was to run in the unlimited class but my pockets are not that deep,

i'd probably not delete the DI, just disable it until dyno tuners play around with it more and are confidant its working well, we have a spare m800 around that would work with meth/water injection to compensate for DI cooling,
i know very little about DI and boxer engines so i might just be spitting in the wind, going backwards maybe retarded but its safe, and if the wrx engine is close to a fa20 with out DI then i'd have to investigate what is interchangeable, swap everything part from block hmmm...
noAE86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 11:11 AM   #203
wcbjr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2006 Subaru LGT
Location: Texas
Posts: 218
Thanks: 46
Thanked 57 Times in 29 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post

Right, but at the point of ditching the DI and the cost to make up for lost primary fuel characteristics...might as well swap the engine for an EJ207-EJ257.
You'll need the transmission as well. The starter is on the opposite side.
wcbjr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 11:28 AM   #204
86purity
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: 95 MR-2 Turbo, 08 Evo X GSR
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 29
Thanks: 8
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
We just have to be patient at this point. Considering that EcuTek has already cracked the ECU, we will know the characteristics of this system soon enough. Judging by the approach that Toyota have taken with the 86 (blank sheet starting point) I believe the FA20 is in a low state of tune with power waiting to be found and exploited. With the ECU being cracked so easily (relatively of course) and Perrin making 8 whp with an early prototype exhaust (extremely good on a modern 4 cyl) I think the FA20 is going to be a gem!
86purity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2012, 07:05 PM   #205
GirlyScions
Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Drives: Mazda3
Location: PA
Posts: 61
Thanks: 5
Thanked 19 Times in 10 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsofWar View Post
We were shown the FA16DIT at the most recent unveiling of subaru products. Which is a FA variant 1.6 Liter Direct Injection Turbo. We have yet to see the FA205/FA20DIT physically but we are confident its coming.
Actually they debut a turbo version of the FA20 with a 10.6:1 compression ratio.
296hp, 295 torque

Although I think I was wrong about the DI, they just wont be using toyotas D4-S dual direct/port injection
GirlyScions is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GirlyScions For This Useful Post:
WingsofWar (06-05-2012)
Old 06-05-2012, 07:55 PM   #206
WingsofWar
MODERATOR-SAMA
 
WingsofWar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Drives: Swagtron Scooter
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,685
Thanks: 345
Thanked 1,561 Times in 524 Posts
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlyScions View Post
Actually they debut a turbo version of the FA20 with a 10.6:1 compression ratio.
296hp, 295 torque

Although I think I was wrong about the DI, they just wont be using toyotas D4-S dual direct/port injection
Oh yeah...my mind totally blew through that recent debut..
__________________
WingsofWar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2012, 03:28 PM   #207
gmookher
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Drives: VortechSC,BorlaEL,Perrin,GCRace
Location: HighHeatHighAltitudeAZ,USA
Posts: 2,254
Thanks: 458
Thanked 669 Times in 394 Posts
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
transplant?
gmookher is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
86 forum, 86 forums, 86 supercharger, fr-s forum, fr-s forums, fr-s supercharger, fr-s video, fr-s videos, frs forum, frs forums, frs supercharger, gt 86 forum, gt86 forum, gt86 forums, scion fr-s forum, scion fr-s forums, scion fr-s supercharged, scion fr-s supercharger, scion fr-s video, scion fr-s videos, scion frs forum, scion frs forums, scion frs supercharger, scion frs video, scion frs videos, supercharged fr-s, supercharged frs, supercharged toyota 86, supercharged toyota gt 86, supercharger, toyota 86 forum, toyota 86 forums, toyota 86 supercharger, toyota 86 video, toyota 86 videos, toyota gt86 forum, toyota gt86 supercharger, toyota gt86 video, toyota gt86 videos

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Supercharger or Turbo ? #87 Forced Induction 192 01-25-2013 10:20 AM
Supercharger for Infiniti G25 Lottta Other Vehicles & General Automotive Discussions 2 02-12-2012 09:10 PM
Arrested Development coming back? iff2mastamatt Off-Topic Lounge [WARNING: NO POLITICS] 0 10-13-2011 04:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.