Turbo Kits: Rational boost threshold yet?

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by raul

The type of turbo you describe you want for this car doesn't match it's personality and design, which is why you probably won't see turbo kits of this type for this car. You want enough torque to avoid having to downshift to pass, which to me seems more like a luxury car trait, not a sports car trait. Yes, it would be nice, but if you're tired of downshifting to pass, maybe you should have chosen the automatic transmission.

finally, someone else who can make logic work favorably towards dispensing good advice

shoulda just got the ms3, focus st or veloster, or mini they all have low down peaked setups

driven them all, some much more than others from the above list
every car from this list above is prone to loos power above 5500 rpms
aside from the dinky lil screen thing and odd dash the ms3 was FUN-est, but torqu-iest and laggy-est too. Mini took the win for fun low down torque but you can do 100mph in (almost!)3rd 4rth 5th 6th, so the gearing up top is wrong.

genesis, mx5,s2000,86 are all setup as high revvers, (and the gearing reflects that)
what your looking for the motor to do can be done, using a smallish turbo for fastest spool up and a sweet spot down low.

I didnt design them, just sayin, I think the AVO is the way to go for low down highway TQ on a budget

I like Fullblown and like P&L but they will end up costing more and I cant comment on my thoughts on quality etc. More race-ey.

you SHOULD really learn to downshift and match the power band to the terrain, rather than try to make a car match your driving style

this was the wrong car to buy for low down TQ, thats just my opine

[whtchocla7e]

Maybe OP bought the wrong car?

[johnnie]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

This is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. My proposal is for the experienced enthusiast that is beyond "My First Turbo Kit" and require a total package that is responsive and a good companion for a twisty back road romp.

Coming from an R56 MCS, like you had, i think i get what you're saying. :happy0180:

But that sort of driveability just doesn't have huge numbers or bench racing credibility. A good turbo package would be great, but IMHO it's too much engineering to work without a huge amount of hassle. That rules it out for me.

I'll probably just go with a SC altough the drag will probably make it a bit slower and more fuel hungry.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by gmookher

....this was the wrong car to buy for low down TQ, thats just my opine

I read you loud and clear. Your application is exactly the opposite of what I'm talking about.

Since the stock engines' VE dies over 6500, I'm proposing using the meat of its VE band; 2500-6500. Obviously this isn't the optimum band for track, but it's a perfect band for typical urban street driving.

Originally Posted by johnnie

....But that sort of driveability just doesn't have huge numbers or bench racing credibility.....

Indeed, good drivability rarely gets airplay. "Power records" get more forum-cred than a well engineered solution.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

I read you loud and clear. Your application is exactly the opposite of what I'm talking about.

Since the stock engines' VE dies over 6500, I'm proposing using the meat of its VE band; 2500-6500. Obviously this isn't the optimum band for track, but it's a perfect band for typical urban street driving.

I'm with you on this one, i don't care if power starts falling off over 6500rpms, it will still be more than stock at that level i just want more in the 2500-6500 range also.

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

This is my ideal powerband


That car was RWD, 2.0L and about the same weight as a FR-S/BRZ. It ran on the track with no heat issues and no problem putting the power down.

[gmookher]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

My proposal is for the experienced enthusiast that is beyond "My First Turbo Kit" and require a total package that is responsive and a good companion for a twisty back road romp.

vendors are capitalizing on immaturity of the customers here, and my 1st stick and automatic drivers' driving style

the ease of delivering a smallish turbo kit yeilds a biggish profit and not much needed in ancillary kit.
We call that an underengineered solution, if thats what the customer wants , give it to them

folks dont know about the heat/detonation scope from a smaller turbo pushing 6psi vs a bigger turbo at 6psi, the smaller system costs less, runs hotter and is budgeted at noob level, so they suck it up
its not till your into boost at 10psi for 25 seconds that that smaller setups shortcomings start to create a risk that can cost alot of money

people need to go thru that "my first turbo" if they have never had a real sports car, or real turbo car before
I get the feeling many folks have never owner a turbo before here

dream dynos are great for noobs who will find one that suits them, easy solution

Having had my foot on the pedal of a few german turbo cars, I am a difficult client for most tuners.
the chart I seek is very different from a small turbo graph

Vendors rather sell to them as there are more of them than there are gmookhers of ryephile types. There is no challenege and not much to engineer to give you guys the 2500 boost you want, rightly sized turbo will do that all day. you are all overthinking this and need to go buy the cheapest turbo being offered, and thats the best advice for that crowd. You will never see track time, you will never go to stage2, then the smallest 5.5 psi kit will do, whats all this looking at graphs for?

The stage1 5.5psi turbo kit is perfect for the My Little Pony First Turbo buyer,those guys wont be happy with a SC, Vortech or innovate.

I'm sure visconti will full on advance the timing at 3000 and win some noobie sales with an SC he brings to market, but I dont think I consider johns tuning ethics as safest, but he does produce a stellar dyno chart..
if you want peak tq down low tho, chances are going sc will be a mistake, you'll have you foot all the way into it all the time, and will not enjoy it

Most of these solutions will change the character of the car. That something I have wanted to preserve. I dont like sewing machines.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by gmookher

vendors are capitalizing on immaturity of the customers here, and my 1st stick and automatic drivers' driving style

the ease of delivering a smallish turbo kit yeilds a biggish profit and not much needed in ancillary kit.
We call that an underengineered solution, if thats what the customer wants , give it to them

folks dont know about the heat/detonation scope from a smaller turbo pushing 6psi vs a bigger turbo at 6psi, the smaller system costs less, runs hotter and is budgeted at noob level, so they suck it up
its not till your into boost at 10psi for 25 seconds that that smaller setups shortcomings start to create a risk that can cost alot of money

people need to go thru that "my first turbo" if they have never had a real sports car, or real turbo car before
I get the feeling many folks have never owner a turbo before here

dream dynos are great for noobs who will find one that suits them, easy solution

Having had my foot on the pedal of a few german turbo cars, I am a difficult client for most tuners.
the chart I seek is very different from a small turbo graph

Vendors rather sell to them as there are more of them than there are gmookhers of ryephile types. There is no challenege and not much to engineer to give you guys the 2500 boost you want, rightly sized turbo will do that all day. you are all overthinking this and need to go buy the cheapest turbo being offered, and thats the best advice for that crowd. You will never see track time, you will never go to stage2, then the smallest 5.5 psi kit will do, whats all this looking at graphs for?

The stage1 5.5psi turbo kit is perfect for the My Little Pony First Turbo buyer,those guys wont be happy with a SC, Vortech or innovate.

I'm sure visconti will full on advance the timing at 3000 and win some noobie sales with an SC he brings to market, but I dont think I consider johns tuning ethics as safest, but he does produce a stellar dyno chart..
if you want peak tq down low tho, chances are going sc will be a mistake, you'll have you foot all the way into it all the time, and will not enjoy it

Most of these solutions will change the character of the car. That something I have wanted to preserve. I dont like sewing machines.

I'm surprised nobody's released a kit yet with a twin scroll, divided manifold 30R or 35R-ish sized turbos.

Given the EGT and exhaust velocity of this engine, I'd expect a relatively quick spool (sub 3k) and an easy 400hp (30R).

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by raul

The type of turbo you describe you want for this car doesn't match it's personality and design, which is why you probably won't see turbo kits of this type for this car. You want enough torque to avoid having to downshift to pass, which to me seems more like a luxury car trait, not a sports car trait. Yes, it would be nice, but if you're tired of downshifting to pass, maybe you should have chosen the automatic transmission.

Response doesn't match the purpose of this responsive car?

[dsmx17]

I will assume you mean 4-5psi by 3k rpm. in the "real" turbo world "spool" (im assuming you infer spool as full boost,otherwise this argument is retarded since most turbos will start to spool when the throttle is opened regardless of rpm) is typically based on a 20psi mark.

[Jesse@JDLAutodesign]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I'm surprised nobody's released a kit yet with a twin scroll, divided manifold 30R or 35R-ish sized turbos.

Given the EGT and exhaust velocity of this engine, I'd expect a relatively quick spool (sub 3k) and an easy 400hp (30R).

Very soon

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Jesse@JDLAutodesign

This is my ideal powerband
....snip....
That car was RWD, 2.0L and about the same weight as a FR-S/BRZ. It ran on the track with no heat issues and no problem putting the power down.

That's a nice setup because there's a broad torque band, F22C1? Making the most out of the turbo mapping is half of what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by gmookher

vendors are capitalizing on immaturity of the customers here, and my 1st stick and automatic drivers' driving style
......snip.....
Vendors rather sell to them as there are more of them than there are gmookhers of ryephile types. There is no challenege and not much to engineer.....

Right, we agree on those points. Dare I suggest we raise the bar instead of pander to the lowest common denominator? I absolutely agree that keeping, or even creating a better driving experience is what we're after. The last thing I'm talking about is ruining the experience. For example, putting a massively laggy setup with an impractically high boost threshold is pointless for stop-n-go traffic. Raising the bar on engineering and tuning competence with a setup that has great response, reasonably low boost threshold, and at least a solid top-end character would basically take the factory torque curve and shelf it up everywhere. I see no negatives there for a street car.

Those of us with a lot of history usually know what we want in terms of character and response. Seeing a diverse offering that allows customers to choose what fits their needs is better than a monochromatic aftermarket where everyone is pigeonholed like the STI or Evo crowd did to themselves. Toyoda-san was adamant that thise car be all about personalization; that is the opposite of group-think, let's keep it that way. :happy0180:

There's plenty of room in the aftermarket for big-turbo kits, little turbo kits, centrifugal, twin-screw, and roots blower solutions. That's because every one offers something the other doesn't.

[Dimman]

Also, @Ryephile learn to drive a stick you never-have-driven-a-sportscar-noob!






Heh...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Jesse@JDLAutodesign

This is my ideal powerband


That car was RWD, 2.0L and about the same weight as a FR-S/BRZ. It ran on the track with no heat issues and no problem putting the power down.

I remember some later revisions of this with E85 making more power, faster, with a bigger turbo, at lower pressures, and running cooler....

AFI's manifold is a piece of art.