86 v 911 (1998 - 1999)

[Fbaum]

Although I don't own either car, I have driven both and have done a lot of research over the last several months comparing these two specific models because I am also debating which one to purchase.

One thing that I have found is that early 996's are really reasonably priced right now. And that is interesting because the '99-'00 996's are actually the more reliable because they have double-row IMS bearings (as someone already pointed out). So the rate of failure was much lower. But, since all the porsche enthusiasts out there HATE the 996 because it is the first water-cooled 911, the resale value has really tanked over the years.

Although that is bad for people who bought them new, it is great for us today. And in all the looking around I have done, I have seen a handful of '99 996's with <50k miles for asking prices between $22-28k. In my mind, that's a bargain.

I personally would rather buy a used BRZ, but the used market is very inflated because of the extraordinary demand for the twins. It's understandable, because they're great cars and are brand new models. However, you're not going to find any bargains out there. Maybe when the 2014 is released the used 2013's will start to come down in price.

So, for getting the best value, I'd go with a 996 with <30k miles and a history of being well maintained and driven weekly. They're out there. You will pay more in maintenance, especially compared to a new car, but the driving experience is tremendous (better than the twins, IMO). Also, since I'm seeing early 996s selling for the mid $20k pricerange regardless of mileage (examples with 100k miles selling for $22k, while examples with <30k miles selling for $26), it seems like they are nearing the bottom of their depreciation curve. So, let's say they never become a classic, and never appreciate in value. Well, you get an amazing driving experience and sell it in 5 years for a loss of $10-15k. You'd be looking at the same loss for buying a new BRZ/FR-S. In five years, they'll be down to 40% of their purchase price. In the end, then, it boils down to whether or not the enhanced driving experience in a 996 (again, my personal opinion) is worth the additional costs in maintenance and gas over the period of your ownership. If you do your research and find a stellar 996, I think those costs will be low and will make the driving experience well worth it.

[chrisl]

Well, it isn't an 86 vs 911 comparison, but I (as a long time lurker) did want to register to give this hopefully relevant opinion.

I've been eyeballing a new BRZ for some time now, and if you asked me a couple months ago what my first choice for a new car would be, I would have said a BRZ, no question. However, a couple weeks ago, I made the mistake of test driving a 2006 Cayman S that was (with everything factored in) about $4-5k more than the BRZ limited (the one I was looking at). Honestly, there's no comparison. Will the Porsche be more expensive to maintain? Absolutely. Is the insurance a bit more expensive than it would be for a BRZ? Yes. Is it worth it? In my opinion, it's worth every penny. As good as the BRZ is, a used Porsche (at least the Cayman S that I ended up buying) is better in almost every way. It has more power without having to wind the engine up near redline (and it still has the instant responsiveness of a naturally aspirated engine), the steering is even more solid feeling and communicative, and the noise it makes at around 5000RPM is just glorious. It's confidence inspiring and fun the way the BRZ is, but the limits are much higher in every respect. The one downside is that the shifter isn't quite as precise as it is in the BRZ, but I can live with that given how much better the steering, brakes, and engine are (and it's a better looking car, in my opinion). Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, a used Porsche is much farther down the depreciation curve, so chances are you can sell it in a few years for much closer to the purchase price than you could with a BRZ (though this is somewhat offset by the higher cost of ownership).

Now, I will admit that part of the reason I may have been a bit disappointed with the BRZ (especially the power) is that I live in Colorado, and the altitude here really handicaps naturally aspirated engines. The Porsche is probably down on power too, but it started with a bunch more, so even with the altitude penalty, it still feels more than adequate. That having been said, when I was looking at getting a BRZ, I was already planning on an intake, exhaust, ECU, etc to bump the power a bit. With the Porsche, the only thing I've even looked at is a short shift kit, and I don't know if I'll even bother with that.

Honestly, I think your best bet is to go test drive a Porsche. See if you fall hopelessly in love with it (like I did with mine), or if it really doesn't seem much better to you than a BRZ/FRS (which are still great cars, but I personally didn't ever come away from a test drive quite as stunned/amazed as I did with the Cayman).

Oh, and here's a picture of my new wonderful car:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9okbzjem7k...2018.44.38.jpg

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by chrisl

Well, it isn't an 86 vs 911 comparison, but I (as a long time lurker) did want to register to give this hopefully relevant opinion.

I've been eyeballing a new BRZ for some time now, and if you asked me a couple months ago what my first choice for a new car would be, I would have said a BRZ, no question. However, a couple weeks ago, I made the mistake of test driving a 2006 Cayman S that was (with everything factored in) about $4-5k more than the BRZ limited (the one I was looking at). Honestly, there's no comparison. Will the Porsche be more expensive to maintain? Absolutely. Is the insurance a bit more expensive than it would be for a BRZ? Yes. Is it worth it? In my opinion, it's worth every penny. As good as the BRZ is, a used Porsche (at least the Cayman S that I ended up buying) is better in almost every way. It has more power without having to wind the engine up near redline (and it still has the instant responsiveness of a naturally aspirated engine), the steering is even more solid feeling and communicative, and the noise it makes at around 5000RPM is just glorious. It's confidence inspiring and fun the way the BRZ is, but the limits are much higher in every respect. The one downside is that the shifter isn't quite as precise as it is in the BRZ, but I can live with that given how much better the steering, brakes, and engine are (and it's a better looking car, in my opinion). Also, as pointed out earlier in the thread, a used Porsche is much farther down the depreciation curve, so chances are you can sell it in a few years for much closer to the purchase price than you could with a BRZ (though this is somewhat offset by the higher cost of ownership).

Now, I will admit that part of the reason I may have been a bit disappointed with the BRZ (especially the power) is that I live in Colorado, and the altitude here really handicaps naturally aspirated engines. The Porsche is probably down on power too, but it started with a bunch more, so even with the altitude penalty, it still feels more than adequate. That having been said, when I was looking at getting a BRZ, I was already planning on an intake, exhaust, ECU, etc to bump the power a bit. With the Porsche, the only thing I've even looked at is a short shift kit, and I don't know if I'll even bother with that.

Honestly, I think your best bet is to go test drive a Porsche. See if you fall hopelessly in love with it (like I did with mine), or if it really doesn't seem much better to you than a BRZ/FRS (which are still great cars, but I personally didn't ever come away from a test drive quite as stunned/amazed as I did with the Cayman).

Oh, and here's a picture of my new wonderful car:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9okbzjem7k...2018.44.38.jpg

Welcome. This is some good advice for people in similar positions. Im always a little confused by the $25K vs $50K comparos but for some people it does make sense. This topic has been talked about already... if you know porsches you stay away from the 996

[Lasse]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Welcome. This is some good advice for people in similar positions. Im always a little confused by the $25K vs $50K comparos but for some people it does make sense. This topic has been talked about already... if you know porsches you stay away from the 996

Why? It has beautiful lines, it is last compact size 911, it has unbeliavable performance and i heard that it is great to drive (great steering feel and it is latest full mechanical 911). I haven't test driven it, yet. But yes in the future.

Talking about performance, 996 carrera is little faster in straight line than new mustang 302, so it really is genuinly fast car!

Of course it has engine problems, but it seems that you can avoid them.

[shyong]

996 aesthetically in my eyes isn't very pleasing to look at. I cannot stand the headlights. My soon to be brother-in-law sold his immaculate 996 Turbo this month. The Turbo doesn't look quite as bad due to the wide body and unique rear. Before ordering my 991S, I played with the idea of maybe getting a lightly used 997S(or Turbo) but it never occurred to me to look at the older 996. They're just ugly in my opinion.

If you really can't budget to have two cars I'd go with the new FR-S/BRZ. If one has to consciously think about what maintenance costs would be on a 911 and hesitancy comes up regarding if you can afford it or not, you really shouldn't get.

[infanterene]

Originally Posted by shyong

996 aesthetically in my eyes isn't very pleasing to look at. I cannot stand the headlights. My soon to be brother-in-law sold his immaculate 996 Turbo this month. The Turbo doesn't look quite as bad due to the wide body and unique rear. Before ordering my 991S, I played with the idea of maybe getting a lightly used 997S(or Turbo) but it never occurred to me to look at the older 996. They're just ugly in my opinion.

If you really can't budget to have two cars I'd go with the new FR-S/BRZ. If one has to consciously think about what maintenance costs would be on a 911 and hesitancy comes up regarding if you can afford it or not, you really shouldn't get.

You would be surprised how similar the 996 and 997 drive. Ive had a 2003? C4S, a 2005 Turbo S and a 2010 997TT. I had 2 air cooled before that.

I took my C4S to lots of track days with ZERO mods, stock brakes stock everything and had ZERO problems. The Turbo S was tuned and had some upgrades- It was sport bike fast. The 997TT was was a great car, better interior/exterior etc but lost my interest quickly(not sure why).

[infanterene]

Originally Posted by Djratrap

I also faced this same predicament when purchasing my BRZ it was down to the BRZ and a 2003 C4S. I could also afford the Porsche and the maintenance, but i decided ultimately that BRZ would give me the same thrills and excitement for a fraction of the price. The Porsche has a lot more frills/oooos and aaahhhs and is an amazing machine. I feel a new Porsche will be my next toy. Personally i'd just rather spend those maintenance costs on other things. Only had the brz a month and loving it, we'll see how it fares in the winter.

You should have bought it. The C4S is a classic which has held its value better than in many cases the Turbo. It is also one of the least seen modern Porsches.

[infanterene]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Welcome. This is some good advice for people in similar positions. Im always a little confused by the $25K vs $50K comparos but for some people it does make sense. This topic has been talked about already... if you know porsches you stay away from the 996

I know Porsches having had 5. I have to disagree, you just have to find the right one.

[jdcorbitt3]

I traded a 986 in on the FR-S. the 986, 996 engines have the same issue. The 98 through 02s have 5 timing chains and an intermediate shaft, which the 991 eliminated. The 03-08 have 3 timing chains. The subaru 3.6 has 2 timing chains and is good for 300,000 miles. The accessories on the Porsche are the same as a lot of VWs. My seat backs on my Ceyenne S fell off and the inside of the seat said VWAG. I have been most disappointed in build quality of Porsche from about 1997 to 2008. If I was to buy another Porsche, it would be an 09 or newer. There are 34 fewer parts in the engine. The one exception would be the 996 and 997 turbo. The engine is a 993 core and has an open IMS bearing and therefore doesn't have the IMS bearing issue.

Pelican parts now has a replacement bearing for $165. On the 97 through 05, it is not hard to do. The 06-08 has a larger diameter bearing and the case has to be split to replace, making those the riskiest engines to buy.

John

[infanterene]

Most of the 996 have been driven enough to know if the are going to have bearing problems or not. If they are going to blow they would have blown by now and if you want to be safe change the bearing.

[ScrewCityChris]

I traded in my '99 996 on a FRS. If you buy smart (get a PPO) the Porsche can be a reliable and exhilarating experience. NOTHING beats the sound of that flat 6 hanging out the back or the feeling of cornering when you figure out where you can start applying power.. unless it goes wrong on you.

The real problem with the Porsche? Its not the maintenance costs which are really not that bad. The problem in my opinion is that the car is exhausting to drive after an hour or 2 on normal roads. That perfect steering feel (seriously, everyone should experience it at least once in their lifetime) that allows you to feel every expansion joint, every tiny thing that the front tires experience? Absolutely brutal after a 2 hour roadtrip in and out of construction zones.

Also, because all the excitement happens at much higher speeds and rates of acceleration as compared to the FRS it is very rare you actually get to have FUN with the car unless all you are trying to do is impress the neighbors because you own a Porsche. If that is the case... well, I dont quite know what to say to those people but I dont understand them.

Driving and owning some generation of 911 is a wonderful experience however in all honesty, the FRS is way more fun, all things considered. I know I haven't looked back once.

[ScrewCityChris]

double post

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by jdcorbitt3

My seat backs on my Ceyenne [sic] S fell off and the inside of the seat said VWAG. I have been most disappointed in build quality of Porsche from about 1997 to 2008. If I was to buy another Porsche, it would be an 09 or newer.

John

I'm not sure why you are surprised, as that car (outside of the powertrain) is basically a rebadged VW. And since VAG has owned Porsche for well over a year now you might want to get used to seeing their fingerprints all over future models.