02-14-2012, 06:09 AM | #29 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: e30 150 deville etc etc
Location: Arizona
Posts: 79
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 9 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
You're missing a gigantic chunk of crucial information here.
1. Performance drivers/automotive enthusiasts = Car Shopping Minority 2. BMW has always been a Luxury car designer, the bmw E30 was a Luxury sedan first and foremost 3. Demand determines the product. People don't go to BMW lots to buy a 2400lb SEAT, it doesn't happen. The majority of BMW consumers are looking for things BMW has offered in their lineup for well over 50 years, COMBINED with the current trends. 4. BMW currently manages to produce a 5 seater sedan, making in excess of 400 horsepower with all the luxury to go tit for tat with Mercedes benz class entry top tier vehicle, yet still has the underpinnings (read: Everything you feel BMW has forgot, such as a highly developed chassis, motorsport derived suspension etc etc) to outlap cars producing well over it's own power. COULD bmw produce a M3 that weighted, 1000lbs less with much less power...yea they could...but why would someone want to go out and spend 60,000 dollars on a car they produced already that brings nothing new to the table except for iDrive. OR are we assuming most M buyers, are late 20 early 30 year olds who are on automotive forums that feel their life would be made better by POWER:WEIGHT SVT is right, you're asking for 90 degree's and snow here. What's next? are Fiat's just too small? If Fiat's would just increase their wheelbase and put a slightly larger engine more centrally located it would be a much better car.. I mean fiat's used to be so prolific in motorsports, but now now they're just fat, and with technology today there's no reason the FIAT 500 can't be a lightweight RWD coupe with leather head to toe maybe with a carbon fiber substructure too.. |
02-14-2012, 10:00 AM | #30 |
86 Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
The only way BMW would create a car to Zdan's liking is if they made a Z1 with more cheaper materials inside similar to the 1 series interior. I think a Z1 could weigh at the least 3100 lbs but that would still be too heavy for him. If anything BMW will eventually make a RWD, MINI and that will suit him perfectly.
|
02-14-2012, 10:39 AM | #31 | ||
(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ
Join Date: Jul 2011
Drives: 2015 Series Blue BRZ
Location: Bronx
Posts: 1,393
Thanks: 930
Thanked 625 Times in 365 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
02-14-2012, 11:02 AM | #32 |
86 Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
I look at it like this. Some enthusiast like:
Super Small( Mx5/Elise/500 abarth)generally under 2600 lbs Small( FR-S/S2K)generally between 2600-2850 lbs Medium(GC/M3/G35/350Z) generally 3000-3600 lbs Large(Challenger/M6/Camaro) generally well over 3600 lbs to infinity!!!! Out of those four I like only three(except Large). Zdan likes only 2 of them(obviously) and it's his preference. All enthusiast aren't equal. I have never driven a fun large sporty car before but the others I have all driven and loved. |
02-14-2012, 11:07 AM | #33 | |
(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ
Join Date: Jul 2011
Drives: 2015 Series Blue BRZ
Location: Bronx
Posts: 1,393
Thanks: 930
Thanked 625 Times in 365 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
02-14-2012, 11:28 AM | #34 | |
86 Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
|
|
02-14-2012, 05:44 PM | #35 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2011
Drives: '23 BRZ
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 4,584
Thanks: 1,376
Thanked 3,890 Times in 2,032 Posts
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That might explain why you wouldn't understand how a Miata makes for a FANTASTIC track car, but a MUCH faster E90/E92, not so much... Even the RICH BMW guys (18-wheeler shows up with car) I know prefer the E36 over later models for a track car. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Automakers too often fret about this, IMO overly so. I mean, the fantastic an beautiful 206 and 246 Dinos didn't get Ferrari badges, but they are LOVED by most Ferrari enthusiasts as much as or more than the bigger contemporary V12 cars. There can be elegance in simplicity, and BMW is fully capable of doing it while *enhancing* rather than tarnishing its image. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
*ALL* I'm suggesting is that there *is* a market for smaller/lighter-weight rwd sports/sporty cars, and that, in my OPINION, it wouldn't be a bad idea for BMW to tap into it. They've been there before and done very well! Quote:
Quote:
That doesn't mean that there isn't a market for a modern 2002. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If one were going for track times, an E92 wouldn't be the best way to spend $62k+, anyway... Quote:
A modern Corvette weighs pretty much exactly what a Corvette from 1968, 1988, 1998, 2008 weighed. While being at pretty much exactly the same place in relative price and performance. A 2012 FR-S/BRZ weighs pretty much exactly what a 1989-1991 S13 240SX weighs, likewise as the same relative price and performance points. If they *wanted* to, BMW *could* build a modern rwd car in the 2800-3200 lb. range, at the same relative price points (or cheaper even) than the E30. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It'd be fine w/ me if BMW made a "sub" brand, but I don't think they would need to or should to do a modern 2002 or E30. Quote:
That's all... Last edited by ZDan; 02-14-2012 at 06:07 PM. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||
The Following User Says Thank You to ZDan For This Useful Post: | amram (05-02-2014) |
02-15-2012, 10:39 AM | #36 |
Douchebag
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2014 Mustang GT
Location: NY
Posts: 1,047
Thanks: 283
Thanked 403 Times in 214 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
BMW has no incentive to build another lightweight, modestly powered driver's car. They've built a brand image on balancing dynamic performance with luxury. 3ers, 5ers, and X5s practically sell themselves. The cost of developing a new car, tooling for manufacturing, marketing... not worth it when their other cars are carrying their weight in sales. Especially for such a small market. There is a big difference between people who say they will buy a car on the internet and people who will actually walk into a dealership to buy one.
Toyota is a brand whose image is boredom. That's not very compelling That is why the GT86 made sense in the home market. They sold, for the last 8 years, 12 different beige cars. Scion is a brand aimed directly at young car enthusiasts. That's why the FR-S makes sense here. Subaru has sold compelling, affordable, lightweight cars for years. That's why the BRZ makes sense. A 2002? Where does that slot in? Under the 1er? BMW dealerships have an air of snobbery around them. That's part of what they sell. Exclusivity. They've carefully cultivated that image for the last 20 years. I can guarantee that most will dealers will cringe at the thought of putting a 28k 2002 next to a 90k 7er on the showroom floor. Even more so at the thought of having 22-25 year olds with mediocre credit coming into their store daily looking to finance the new affordable BMW. Long story short, it makes absolutely no financial sense for BMW to do so, and BMW is first and foremost a business.
__________________
Here - 2014 Mustang GT Track Package/Recaros - Koni Yellows, Boss 302 Springs, BMR SB041 Front Sway Bar, Boss 302 Rear Sway Bar, Boss 302 Wheels, GT500 Quad Tip Axleback, 2016 Legacy 2.5i Limited
Gone - 2010 RX350, 2006 GTO (2nd), 2007 RX350, 2008 IS250AWD, 2006 GTO, 2004 G35 6MT, 1992 SC400 |
02-15-2012, 01:04 PM | #37 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2003 BMW M3, 2006 Scion xB
Location: San Diego
Posts: 49
Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
I own an E46 M3 convertible, and it is heavy. Coupes are lighter, but still heavy relative to E30 M3s. In order to please consumers who constantly want more power, more luxury, more technology, BMW has gone that route with all of their cars. The only good thing is that this has left a gaping hole at the bottom of their lineup to bring something smaller, lighter, RWD, and fun to drive to the masses.
A 128i starts at 3200lbs and $32k, so it's not far off the mark. Maybe the next generation 2-series coupe will bring us closer to the E30 weight and fun factor that we all wish for.
__________________
2003 BMW M3 | 2010 Audi A4 Avant | 2006 Scion xB | PAST - 1986 MB 190E 2.3-16, 2005 Volvo S60 2.5T
|
02-15-2012, 01:09 PM | #38 |
86 Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Drives: 2013 Toyota 86 2.0T (Asphalt)
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 3,129
Thanks: 126
Thanked 527 Times in 296 Posts
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
|
That is a ugly BMW right there.
|
02-15-2012, 01:30 PM | #39 |
i'm sorry, what?
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Canada
Location: I rock a beat harder than you can beat it with rocks
Posts: 4,399
Thanks: 357
Thanked 2,506 Times in 1,268 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
|
actually i was driving next to a 128i for 20 minutes the other day, stuck in traffic. It was nice and clean, but i just couldn't fall in love with it. Also if it's indeed 3200 pounds then by gosh it either has a ridiculously thick carcass or it has every known creature comfort and airbag known to man, cuz that car is small.
__________________
don't you think if I was wrong, I'd know it?
|
02-15-2012, 01:52 PM | #40 | |
Douchebag
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2014 Mustang GT
Location: NY
Posts: 1,047
Thanks: 283
Thanked 403 Times in 214 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
Side impact reinforcement, crash beams, front, side curtain, side impact airbags, and sound deadening. The C6 weighs 3100-3300 lbs. Certainly doesn't drive like it's "too heavy."
__________________
Here - 2014 Mustang GT Track Package/Recaros - Koni Yellows, Boss 302 Springs, BMR SB041 Front Sway Bar, Boss 302 Rear Sway Bar, Boss 302 Wheels, GT500 Quad Tip Axleback, 2016 Legacy 2.5i Limited
Gone - 2010 RX350, 2006 GTO (2nd), 2007 RX350, 2008 IS250AWD, 2006 GTO, 2004 G35 6MT, 1992 SC400 |
|
02-15-2012, 02:18 PM | #41 | |
i'm sorry, what?
Join Date: Jan 2012
Drives: Canada
Location: I rock a beat harder than you can beat it with rocks
Posts: 4,399
Thanks: 357
Thanked 2,506 Times in 1,268 Posts
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
heavy is relative i have driven shotgun in a C6 at mosport international raceway and yes.. the car is freakishly fast, there is no denying. i have also had the privilege of driving a Lotus Elise around the track (and spinning out twice!). if you ever get a chance to drive something like an Elise then even miatas will feel like pigs to you. It's hard to explain. With light weight comes the need for bigger balls going into corners at a faster speed. Heavier cars with gobs of power can mask a persons fear of going into a corner 100%. They will brake a little longer, coast a little more, and when they step on the gas there is little chance of them losing it because the car already slowed down to a safe level. but since you got like 400 HP pushing you then that difference in time will be eliminated rather quickly a lighter car needs to keep momentum, and momentum is scary, esp if weight goes down and tire grip goes up.
__________________
don't you think if I was wrong, I'd know it?
|
|
02-15-2012, 03:00 PM | #42 | |
Douchebag
Join Date: Dec 2011
Drives: 2014 Mustang GT
Location: NY
Posts: 1,047
Thanks: 283
Thanked 403 Times in 214 Posts
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
|
Quote:
And with C6s, Vipers, most of those mid-sized sports cars, the thresholds are just higher. You've got more grip, more brake, more power, and everything happens faster. 9/10ths is 9/10ths, no matter what kind of car you're in. You just lose it in a bigger way when you do lose it.
__________________
Here - 2014 Mustang GT Track Package/Recaros - Koni Yellows, Boss 302 Springs, BMR SB041 Front Sway Bar, Boss 302 Rear Sway Bar, Boss 302 Wheels, GT500 Quad Tip Axleback, 2016 Legacy 2.5i Limited
Gone - 2010 RX350, 2006 GTO (2nd), 2007 RX350, 2008 IS250AWD, 2006 GTO, 2004 G35 6MT, 1992 SC400 |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|