86 is more fun than a Supra

[Guru Woodman]

I could see myself buying a Supra. First a 86, than a Supra.

I used to work for BMW in the eighties, when the brand stood for top German engineering. My first car was a 02 series and it sparked my car enthusiasm.
Sadly they lost their way and quality went downhill fast due to cost cutting and poor management.
I wouldn't touch one with a stick until now. I am hoping that Toyota has injected some reliability into the car and BMW some passion. Time will tell.

[Tokay444]

Then*

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Guru Woodman

I could see myself buying a Supra. First a 86, than a Supra.

I used to work for BMW in the eighties, when the brand stood for top German engineering. My first car was a 02 series and it sparked my car enthusiasm.
Sadly they lost their way and quality went downhill fast due to cost cutting and poor management.
I wouldn't touch one with a stick until now. I am hoping that Toyota has injected some reliability into the car and BMW some passion. Time will tell.

I don't really think reliability is a problem with BMW right now. I think it's more about their maintenance costs which still scare people.

I've had 2 newer BMW's in the past 4 years (traded in the last one for the new few months back, so more like one), and there has been 0 issues with the car. Being honest, the 86/BRZ is likely more unreliable than new BMW's.

[Guru Woodman]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Then*

** Denn

[LimitedSlip]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I would add one thing (98% personal opinion). In it's price range the 86 has very few equals in terms of sports/performance cars. The Supra is in a price range where I could think it is well down the list of cars I would spend that much money on if I was so inclined to move to that level.

Excellent observation. Example: 2019 Corvette Stingray Coupe, 455 HP, 460 ft/lbs of torque, 7 speed manual transmission. 0-60 in 3.7 seconds. Base price $55,900 US. Of course, good luck finding a "base model".

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by LimitedSlip

Excellent observation. Example: 2019 Corvette Stingray Coupe, 455 HP, 460 ft/lbs of torque, 7 speed manual transmission. 0-60 in 3.7 seconds. Base price $55,900 US. Of course, good luck finding a "base model".

Not that hard. I went to www.corvette.com and did a search for inventory. There are 16 new Corvettes within a 40 mile drive of my home that are under $60,000.

[James H]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

I've driven both 86 and Supra at the track and street. I don't claim 86 is more fun than a Supra. Cuz both cars are fun in their own areas.

Both cars have different goals in mind, when Tada-san was developed these cars.

86 is lightweight car that almost everyone can afford (without selling body parts) and enjoy driving. Yes, it's gutless, but that makes this car fun driving fast. For owner who wants sports car while having more useful space, don't want maintenance cost of sports car, want to learn how to drive RWD and like to modify your car then 86 is the one of the best options.

Supra is power car that not everyone can afford and do require several more days thinking to buy or not. Yes, it's not lightweight as 86, but Supra keep pushing you forward and forward everywhere. For owner who's looking to shave every tenth, hundredth of second around the track, don't care not having usable space and to remember what is to have crazy amount of torque to push you back on your seat while going fast through the corner, Supra is the car for you. I wouldn't say Supra isn't mod friendly, but it's gonna be hard to make it better than as is. Of course, it vary by owner's taste... but it's not cheap nor easy.

Which one I liked more? I liked both... BUT lightweight is a def weapon and I enjoy driving the 86. If Supra could shave another 200~300lbs (from stock), I def went with Supra though.

That's my 2yen.

Tada-san did not develop the new Supra, Hans did. Supra is just another addition in the horsepower game. Look at it from a different lens, the new Supra has less power than a C63, not as practical as a M4, doesn't handle as well as a Cayman and costs way too much a Toyota badge. Sorry but I don't buy the idea of Toyota trying to get back into the sport car scene when they cheap out and use a BMW chassis and engine for what's supposedly their once halo car. All the while they invested in building the Lexus RC, NX? how "devoted" can he really be?

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by James H

Tada-san did not develop the new Supra, Hans did. Supra is just another addition in the horsepower game. Look at it from a different lens, the new Supra has less power than a C63, not as practical as a M4, doesn't handle as well as a Cayman and costs way too much a Toyota badge. Sorry but I don't buy the idea of Toyota trying to get back into the sport car scene when they cheap out and use a BMW chassis and engine for what's supposedly their once halo car. All the while they invested in building the Lexus RC, NX? how "devoted" can he really be?

How are you comparing only small part of different cars?
Here are some basic specs on these to keep in mind if you gonna compare.

A90 Supra (base)
Price: $49,990
Overall Length: 172.5 inches
Curb Weight: 3,397 lbs
HP/TQ: 335HP/365TQ

AMG C63 Coupe
Price: $68,750
Overall Length: 187.1 inches
Curb Weight: 4,109 lbs
HP/TQ: 469HP/479TQ

M4 Coupe
Price: $69,150
Overall Length: 184.5 inches
Curb Weight: 3625 lbs
HP/TQ: 425HP/406TQ

Cayman Base (PDK)
Price: $60.110
Overall Length: 172.4 inches
Curb Weight: 3,010 lbs
HP/TQ: 300HP/280TQ

With that said, only one I see beating Supra in basic specs is Cayman... but even then, that's extra $10k more with less HP/TQ. Of course, I'm comparing with base model Supra. Even using Premium Supra ($53,990), base Cayman still cost $6k more. All other ones are gigantic boats!

Costing more than other Toyota? In Japan, Supra RZ cost 6,900,000 yen. Keep in mind, Supra isn't regular Toyota. It's GR Supra, so it's brand off GRMN model. If you look at GRMN brand cars, GR 86 cost (4,968,000 yen) that's more than base model Supra (4,900,000 yen).

TBH I can keep going at this number game... but reality is, number is one thing, feeling is another. Just like 86/BRZ, numbers doesn't justify all the driving feel.

[James H]

Originally Posted by ichitaka05

How are you comparing only small part of different cars?
Here are some basic specs on these to keep in mind if you gonna compare.

A90 Supra (base)
Price: $49,990
Overall Length: 172.5 inches
Curb Weight: 3,397 lbs
HP/TQ: 335HP/365TQ

AMG C63 Coupe
Price: $68,750
Overall Length: 187.1 inches
Curb Weight: 4,109 lbs
HP/TQ: 469HP/479TQ

M4 Coupe
Price: $69,150
Overall Length: 184.5 inches
Curb Weight: 3625 lbs
HP/TQ: 425HP/406TQ

Cayman Base (PDK)
Price: $60.110
Overall Length: 172.4 inches
Curb Weight: 3,010 lbs
HP/TQ: 300HP/280TQ

With that said, only one I see beating Supra in basic specs is Cayman... but even then, that's extra $10k more with less HP/TQ. Of course, I'm comparing with base model Supra. Even using Premium Supra ($53,990), base Cayman still cost $6k more. All other ones are gigantic boats!

Costing more than other Toyota? In Japan, Supra RZ cost 6,900,000 yen. Keep in mind, Supra isn't regular Toyota. It's GR Supra, so it's brand off GRMN model. If you look at GRMN brand cars, GR 86 cost (4,968,000 yen) that's more than base model Supra (4,900,000 yen).

TBH I can keep going at this number game... but reality is, number is one thing, feeling is another. Just like 86/BRZ, numbers doesn't justify all the driving feel.

For that price and with those looks, I would put my money on a RS3, brand prestige and at $56K (base), 174" long, 3,540lbs, 400bhp with a 3.5s 0 to 60mph and it will be faster than a Supra in dry, rain or snow. The Supra is just not a convincing case.
A lot of people buy Toyota knowing that they are giving up a bit of the edginess in European cars as a trade off for reliability, but unfortunately that is out the door with the BMW engine and tranny. And as I said, I am not convinced by the argument that we should thank Toyota for bringing back the Supra even if it is a rebadged BMW because it's not profitable to build coupes. How does Akio explain the investment they put in the Lexus LC500, RC, NX?
I love the 86/BRZ because it is truly something different and refreshing, Its selling point is that it is an agile, back to basic sports car. The Supra's selling point... its a Supra? see past that, it's really nothing original.
They are just using a legendary badge as a marketing ploy... the Toyota version of Police Academy 5....

[HKz]

^ a bit unfair especially if you are a fan of the twins because in many ways the whole project and results are pretty comparable...I'm not a fan of the partnership either but chassis wise think we have to respect what they were able to bring to the market as it is Cayman sized (shortest wheelbase among current hardtop RWD coupes) while being the simpler FR config. And while I dislike it being AT only, I don't think the ZF8 will be an issue as this has been proven across multiple brands & models..it is a torque converter after all..

B58 is the only real concern here but we have to assume Toyota is totally aware their reliability image is always on the line for their products so you have to think it has been tested and checked. If you look up reliability stats and discussion on forums, so far it looks to be pretty decent.

..and "costs" way too much with a Toyota badge? Bruh, this is much cheaper than even the cheapest MSRP ever offered on a MKIV...and think there plenty of Sequoias, Tundras and Land Cruisers that have even higher prices..

[DandoX]

My three problems with the Supra are in order:
01. Why get the Supra over the Z4? Z4 has optional extra power and a convertible top

02. No Manual transmission for Supra (Z4 will likely get one before the Supra if at all)

03. Styling and fake vents on a car that expensive

My main question that you guys may be able to help me understand is:
Why would someone who likes that platform buy the Supra over the Z4 (let's pretend the Supra isn't the more ugly sister)?

[James H]

I would choose a used first generation NSX with up to 50K miles for the same money over a Supra GR, without hesitation!

[reeves]

Originally Posted by DandoX

My three problems with the Supra are in order:
01. Why get the Supra over the Z4? Z4 has optional extra power and a convertible top

02. No Manual transmission for Supra (Z4 will likely get one before the Supra if at all)

03. Styling and fake vents on a car that expensive

My main question that you guys may be able to help me understand is:
Why would someone who likes that platform buy the Supra over the Z4 (let's pretend the Supra isn't the more ugly sister)?

01. I specifically got the 86 (over other sports coupes) because it doesn't have a sunroof or convertible top. I would buy the Supra over the Z4 for this reason alone, even if prices were the same. If the Z4 had the hard top, and the Supra were the convertible, I'd buy the Z4.

02. That is the deal-breaker for me. But I would still not buy the Z4 for just the manual.

03. Styling & vents are things I can grow to love, even for $50K.. as long as I enjoy the drive. I was never a fan of the previous Supra look, and this one looks better than the MKIV to me.

I don't really care for the BMW badge. I don't hate them, but I've had Toyotas all my life and don't mind it's badge in my driveway over a BMW.

[new2subaru]

Originally Posted by DandoX

My three problems with the Supra are in order:
01. Why get the Supra over the Z4? Z4 has optional extra power and a convertible top

02. No Manual transmission for Supra (Z4 will likely get one before the Supra if at all)

03. Styling and fake vents on a car that expensive

My main question that you guys may be able to help me understand is:
Why would someone who likes that platform buy the Supra over the Z4 (let's pretend the Supra isn't the more ugly sister)?

1. has enough power as is. Don't like convertibles.

2. Don't care.

3. The styling is nice. Show me another like it?

Looks, Toyota tuning and hard top trump.