Recommended Camber for tracking

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hags86

Thanks for the suggestion Mike. I agree with your long term solution and the principle of avoiding inexpensive but wasteful interim costs (e.g. fixed offset strut mounts, offset bushes etc).

What I liked about the coil over solution was the repeatability and relative ease of switching from say 0 or -0.5 degrees on the road and -2.5 or -3.0 degrees on the track. I don't think this is true for the double camber bolt solution. I don't want to be doing a wheel alignment after I change back/forward.

I'm as much concerned as excessive tyre wear on the outside of my track tyres as I am for inside wear on my road tyres. It's a daily driver after all.

$3k for a set of coilovers isn't a problem at the moment, I'm going to be heading there anyway, I'd like to drop it 15-20mm in any case and the MCA setup seems to have a repeatable way to move camber back and forward so I'm still leaning to the coilovers as a next step.

The intent was get the alignment shop to set it up for 0 degrees and -2.5 degrees I'll take reference locations and swap back and forward for each track day.

You sure you want MCA and not something proven in the states?

[Hags86]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You sure you want MCA and not something proven in the states?

No I'm not wedded to the idea but given their history and local manufacture and support it seemed like a sensible place to start. I'm happy to take recommendations - $3k budget, best I can get on the track and liveable on the road are the parameters I'm working in.

[garfull]

id like to know how much toe changes with camber.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hags86

No I'm not wedded to the idea but given their history and local manufacture and support it seemed like a sensible place to start. I'm happy to take recommendations - $3k budget, best I can get on the track and liveable on the road are the parameters I'm working in.

$3k AUD is more than 3k USD

[Hags86]

That was true about 4 weeks ago. Since then it's dropped from $1.05 to $0.91.

Great time for you 'mericans to come here on a holiday!

[celica73]

Originally Posted by garfull

id like to know how much toe changes with camber.

It's been discussed before. IIRC it is about 1/16 inch toe in for every degree negative camber added. So going from -1 to -2 degrees camber (on each side) will result in 1/8" toe in.

[defylogik]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Ride height...

Mike,


What sort of toe are you running in the rear at -2+? Are you using adjustable toe links or just the stock adjustment?






Scott

[Element Tuning]

It really depends on your ultimate goal. If you're on any sort of streetable suspension on a race tire pretty much as much negative camber up front as you can get since the MAC strut doesn't maintain that negative camber well as suspension compresses and the wheel turns (you are fighting the tendency for it to go positive).

Look at the picture and note the inside front tire. When you run a qualifying setup tire wear is of no concern and you will tear up the inside right tire on most tracks in one weekend. To extend life you have to rotate at least every other session so don't run staggered tires on a real track car.

I also like a little toe out in the front to get more mid corner and exit grip but this also causes more inside tire wear. For street I pull the camber plate to less negative camber until toe is zero and rock that for DD. As mentioned in street trim toe will wear tires much faster than reasonable negative camber (-2.5).

The rear doesn't need as much static negative camber since the multilink does a better job of maintaining negative camber. I run what I get from my ride height but I am modestly lower. I could probably use a touch more rear negative based on this picture and what I was feeling at the track.

Last but not least do what feels right and allows for a faster lap time if you are racing. I was told long ago from someone who setup cars for qualifying in the JGTC to toss the temp gauge out the window for the fastest lap! Make sure you run enough negative to use all the tread and no more and to run as much toe out as you need to get through the turn without push. Tire life is of no concern! Now if tire life is a concern don't run as much camber or toe out

Thanks,
Phil Grabow

[ultra]

The predictable internet nerd in me says to get some tire chalk and a pyrometer, do a conservative baseline setup and then go out there and test because I've been told by folks much smarter than myself that the 'best' camber is just whatever you have to run to get maximum grip out of your tires without them rolling over onto the shoulders, plus a little tweak here or there to tune the balance of grip based on driver preference.

If you're really hard core about lap times you may even find that different settings on each and every corner give you the absolute best lap times on a particular track, i.e. more negative camber on the left side for a clockwise circuit etc. etc. etc.


Back down on earth in the real world where the lazy me lives though I couldn't possibly recommend better baseline settings than the pros on here.

All I can really say in the hope of adding a little value and not being a useless, pedantic keyboard jockey is to share that I'm running a WAY milder alignment setup than everyone else has posted so far yet I've had absolutely ZERO issues with my tires rolling over or scrubbing out on the track.

I'm dropped about 30mm on coilovers and am running -2.0 camber up front and -1.5 camber rear with a smidge of toe out in front and 0 rear. Double camber bolts up front for the camber plus Avo caster bushings and Whiteline camber bushings out back. 225mm street tires (Conti 2s) on 18x8 inch rims. Track was the Dubai Autodrome Club circuit. Very happy with it as is for street/track.

Perfect treadwear after three full sessions - right up to the edges of the tread but nothing on the shoulders. Tires look barely used. I usually cook tire shoulders pretty easily on any given car so the end result was not what I assumed it would be! Maybe my pressures were just a bit high (high 30s psi hot) - who knows.

Best of luck, enjoy and please report back!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Hags86

That was true about 4 weeks ago. Since then it's dropped from $1.05 to $0.91.

Great time for you 'mericans to come here on a holiday!

Net cost on drinks is still way higher!

Remember, your minimum wage is around double ours....

Originally Posted by defylogik

Mike,

What sort of toe are you running in the rear at -2+? Are you using adjustable toe links or just the stock adjustment?

Scott

We run 0 toe, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're comfortable with a looser rear. Our entire suspension assembly is stock EXCEPT for the coilovers. Sways, end links, arms, etc. are all stock.

[garfull]

i always thought more negative toe will add toe out because of the caster angle? i guess the only way to really know is to make changes and measure or do it on an alignment rack.

Originally Posted by celica73

It's been discussed before. IIRC it is about 1/16 inch toe in for every degree negative camber added. So going from -1 to -2 degrees camber (on each side) will result in 1/8" toe in.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by garfull

i always thought more negative toe will add toe out because of the caster angle? i guess the only way to really know is to make changes and measure or do it on an alignment rack.

I get more toe in with more negative camber on the FRS.

[GTM_Challenge]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

I get more toe out with more negative camber on the FRS.

Makes sense with the rack tie rods being behind the centerline of the axle vs. in front.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

We run 0 toe, but I wouldn't recommend it unless you're comfortable with a looser rear.

So I guess you have a loose rear then Ha ha couldn't resist.