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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 06-15-2016, 12:52 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by totopo View Post
I think this whole argument is pretty silly. Competing for who is faster of the slowest sports car.

If you are looking at lap times/$$$ spent you are barking up the wrong tree.

wrx, v6 mustang, c6 camaro, ecoboost mustang will all blow both of these cars out of the water.

Isn't the point of the 86 to be a fun car? The miata never tried to boast about lap times. It was always about the driving experience. Why is it such a big deal that the 86 may or may not be faster than another car that's focused on fun?

And who cares if some reviewers like the miata better than the 86. If what they say impacts your enjoyment of the 86 so much, then go freaking buy a miata and just be a fanboy that flocks to whatever new car journalists rave about.
^^^ THIS!

This thread should be renamed to which is a better track car. For that time will tell as you need to take reliability, consumables and what sorts of mods would need to be made for either to be a competent track car.

I enjoy reading comparison threads, especially between these two, but this is not an apple for apple comparison. I'd wait for the performance pack to come on the twins and then see how the dust really settles on this discussion.
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Old 06-15-2016, 07:41 AM   #44
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Well the 86 has much better support from the aftermarket right now. The ND aftermarket is coming along but the parts and knowledge is not as matured as the twin world. Stock vs Stock the Miata seems to come with a better overall setup. We all know that, since most the lap times show its capability. But most of us on here mod our cars, even if it is just tires...which can make a big impact. I personally shaved off almost 2 secs on 1.2 mile quasi AX course just by going from the stock primacy's to my current 245 square setup of RE71s. And I would imagine now that the gap would be bigger.

But i think most people would agree that part of the MX-5 advantage in stock form is the better rubber and/or brake package. However, the MX-5 has a super soft (IMO shitty) suspension setup even on the Club edition. The Miata rolls like a MotherF.

So since we can't get apples to apples, we are all trying to discuss (argue) which car has the better chassis....mod for mod. Ultimately, which car can be made best. Well there is no clear answer, never will be. But here is my general consensus.

1st. Brz/FRS has a very well setup chassis and suspension from the factory. You really just need tires. The MX5 comes with better tires, only making the body roll worse. So to improve its flaws you need to upgrade the struts, coils etc. So from the factory i think the twins come with the better setup suspension. Plus, I would rather my new car just need tires and brake pads to be good on the track. And, not need to buy coilovers right away. But just my preference.

2nd. The brakes. Personally i think the brembo package is a waste unless you never intend to mod. Changing the pads on the 86 will likely give you braking just as capable as the brembo package on the MX5. Likewise, i would buy an MX5 without the brembo kit and just upgrade pads until i could upgrade to a proper BBK if needed. But neither cars system is bad for street driving, however niether system is track ready either once you are beyond novice status. So lets call this a wash. Or at least I will.

3rd. The Miata is lighter with a short wheelbase and likes to rotate, once you stiffen up the suspension thru coilovers and/or sways the car will have really good transient behavior. In other words at the end of the day my theory is the MX-5 mod for mod would squeak out the BRZ on the AX course. However......

4th. The BRZ has better Aero and a longer wheelbase (stable at speed) so I believe that mod for mod the BRZ would be the better car for HPDE or track days.

Final thoughts, both cars can pull double duty from AX to Track days. Even though they each have their areas where they are stronger. But i believe the BRZ has a better starting point for my needs. Some will find the Miata may be a better starting point. These are things the auto writers almost never touch on. Once i run a car around a track almost anything the auto magazine world writes about is almost obsolete to me. Once you start to mod, then it doesnt matter at all what a journalist writes. Because you are much more down the rabbit hole now than they are. And, the reason the MX5 is getting more favorable reviews right now (and this has been said about 5 times already) is because its the new kid on the block. Magazines almost always find a way to bias a review in favor of the new car. When a new mustang comes out it beats the Camaro because its a better DD car that is also fun on the track. When a new Camaro comes out it beats the Mustang because despite the car being a harsher DD, it is the better performing car on the track. The journos also pick the best category for the new car and focus on that. But i digress.

To be honest though, I would rather have a used S2000 for a track/AX toy than an ND Miata. But this is a Miata vs Twins thread so the S2000 is disqualified. Right?
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Last edited by brzaapi; 06-15-2016 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 06-15-2016, 08:30 AM   #45
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However, the MX-5 has a super soft (IMO shitty) suspension setup even on the Club edition. The Miata rolls like a MotherF.
Why did it take 4 pages for someone to point out this.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:05 AM   #46
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To be honest though, I would rather have a used S2000 for a track/AX toy than an ND Miata.
Agreed. I don't see the ND Miata as being an appealing track car for many because of the used S2000 alternative. Cheaper, faster and similarly reliable. And both share the same limitations that come with being a 2-seat convertible so neither has the advantage there (need for rollbar, lack of fixed roof, lack of room to haul dedicated track tires, etc.) And if you want a car lighter than the S2000, the NA/NB generation Miata can be found for a fraction of the cost as well. This is not a knock against the new Miata as a track car, it's just there are very compelling, cheaper alternatives in the used convertible market.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:44 AM   #47
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To anyone saying if you change tires on twins you have to give miata suspension (or other mod). I disagree. Anyone who owns a car will change tires on it. And if you have a sports car you will probably look at "sporty" tires. Other types of mods, like suspension, are much less sought after. Even with people who track their cars.

I think the cars are different enough that it's hard to compare them anyway.
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:09 PM   #48
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Why did it take 4 pages for someone to point out this.
because roll is mostly driver preference on the track.

The miata was designed specifically for more roll because the lead designer feels that more roll angle gives more feedback for drivers so they can more easily drive to the limit.

The 86 was designed for less roll because the lead designer feels that less roll angle gives the driver more confidence and so they can more easily drive to the limit.

It's again mostly a preference thing. It's hard to say which one is "objectively" better, but it gives fanbois something to harp over. Car magazines have no problem praising the 86 for it's flat handling nature, or the miata for it's driver feedback. It's all whoever is writing the articles, how they feel that day, how much money the automakers are padding their pockets. Who cares. like whichever car you like and stop wasting time bashing other ones.

also the miata suspension deals with roll a ton better with uneven double-A compared to mac phearson.
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Old 06-15-2016, 12:21 PM   #49
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Why did it take 4 pages for someone to point out this.
I alluded to this on page 2...
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:14 PM   #50
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the only delusion going on is your self constructed strawmen, or perhaps the self loathing in your choice of current automobile
The sky is blue
The grass is green
The Earth is getting hotter
And the Miata is faster than the 86

If you deny things that are proven to be true you'll get people pulling you into Home Depot asking you to point at paint chips or be forced to watch a boring as shit movie about Al Gore. Get used to it.

This is what's important:
Quote:
Originally Posted by totopo View Post
And who cares if some reviewers like the miata better than the 86. If what they say impacts your enjoyment of the 86 so much, then go freaking buy a miata and just be a fanboy that flocks to whatever new car journalists rave about.


If there's anything to bitch about the media getting wrong about fun cars it's calling overweight pigs like this:

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Originally Posted by totopo View Post
wrx, v6 mustang, v6 camaro, ecoboost mustang will all blow both of these cars out of the water.
'sports cars'

I'll go soothe my "self loathing" by finding the next autocross event I can hit up and spend the weekend working on the setup on my 86 instead of coming back to this thread.

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Old 06-15-2016, 03:29 PM   #51
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it's pretty bad argument.......cuz most other country 80% of the miata sold will be the one with tiny 1.5L engine. By the time you actually pay for the one with 2.0L in it with all the sports package & upgrades......You will be looking @ other cars already if tracking is what you want....

Car being cheaper in US definitely helps but still just look @ ND's weight alone it shouldn't be a surprise, not to mention the 3.5k brake option really helps making it faster then twins on track.

That being said the MX5 - RF concept @ newyork autoshow does makes me want one... >__>

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Old 06-15-2016, 03:31 PM   #52
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Why did it take 4 pages for someone to point out this.
I have absolutely no idea! Every Youtube video that I've seen has this thing rocking like an old Jeep ready to tip over.
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:14 PM   #53
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The sky is blue


I'll go soothe my "self loathing" by finding the next autocross event I can hit up and spend the weekend working on the setup on my 86 instead of coming back to this thread.
hey you got the last word in, congrats. try reading what someone says before you threadjack another thread arguing all kind of things that were never said in the first place.
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Old 06-15-2016, 05:24 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by totopo View Post
I think this whole argument is pretty silly. Competing for who is faster of the slowest sports car.

If you are looking at lap times/$$$ spent you are barking up the wrong tree.

wrx, v6 mustang, v6 camaro, ecoboost mustang will all blow both of these cars out of the water.

Isn't the point of the 86 to be a fun car? The miata never tried to boast about lap times. It was always about the driving experience. Why is it such a big deal that the 86 may or may not be faster than another car that's focused on fun?

And who cares if some reviewers like the miata better than the 86. If what they say impacts your enjoyment of the 86 so much, then go freaking buy a miata and just be a fanboy that flocks to whatever new car journalists rave about.
hey there buddy, slow your roll. i think what i do about my own car, and noones opinion makes me think otherwise about it in any way.

that being said, there's not one major publication that hasn't said that the twins are limited because they are slow when the miata is just marginally not as slow and noone mentions this as a weakness of that platform. the miata gets its fair shake as being a 'fun' car but reviews of the twins invariably veer towards that it could be fun, but its underpowered.

and those people do help to shape the viability of what happens to sales to some degree, certainly more than any a-hole posting on a message board, including myself does.
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Old 06-16-2016, 07:34 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perryair View Post
the miata gets its fair shake as being a 'fun' car but reviews of the twins invariably veer towards that it could be fun, but its underpowered.
All momentum cars get picked on for being underpowered. Including the Miata, which has been knocked off and on for years. I think publications are more polite to the Miata MX-5 because it truly does have a 25 year pedigree including I believe, almost a 20 year racing history.

But if you go back to the BRZ/FRS reviews of 2012, you can see it gets a lot of love and that everyone respects the NC but believes it is a bit tired compared to the twins.

However, one video review i liked of the twins vs the ND MX5 was the Randy Pobst Head2head comparo at Streets of Willow. He mentions some pros and cons of each car. Says he is conflicted, and that he likes both cars. But if forced to decide; he said he may give the advantage to the MX5. Which it was a second faster that day on the track. So i understand that arguement, even if i disagree with the great Pobst.

Anyways, the Miata gets respect for its history i believe. But there are reviews out there that choose the BRZ over the MX5.


Sidenote: YES, that new fastback looking hardtop ND MIata looks great to me. Makes me want to go get one and spend about 5k getting all my chosen go fast bits on it for some fun ass AX. Again, if i could justify having both a BRZ and MX5 i would. But BRZ is my 3rd car after two DD for the family. Within my budget, I think the ND would be a 6th car. Probably after other car choices like 1LE Camaro, Used C7( when cheap enough), Used Cayman or an S2000.

Wife hates the ND though, and we both AX/track the BRZ. So count my vote for the twins over the MX5 as 2.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:37 PM   #56
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but the miata still looks like a chick's car!!!!!!
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