General question: how do you justify installing parts that may not be reversible?

[soundman98]

or my favorite

"wing, what wi...HOLY COW SOMEONE RUINED MY CAR WITH A UGLY WING!!! now i need to spend thousands to change it back!"

[cjd]

So far I don't have problems reversing with every single mod installed... At least, no more than I did stock. Still kill it going over the edge into the garage sometimes. Have to back into a spot with only a couple inches width to spare.

Its a car. Its a hobby. It is how I choose to spend some of my discretionary income.

[Tristor]

Originally Posted by ZDan

IMO oil cooler is not needed for "casual" track usage. My oil temps get up to 272F indicated at the track, but I'm only out for ~15 minutes at a time and I change it frequently (~every 4 track days). I also run 5w30, full synth of course.

IMO, for many of us doing HPDEs the risks associated with running an oil cooler may outweigh the risks of NOT running one...

This is terrible advice. The issue with oil temperatures is not breaking down the oil... most full synthetics have breakdown temps in excess of 300F. It's the loss of oil pressure in an engine which already has oiling design flaws. If you are tracking the car, you need an engine oil cooler for reliability, period, full stop. If you don't yet have an oil pressure gauge, get one and install it, you can run it off the oil cooler sandwich plate. The oil temperature ONLY matters because of its relation to pressure... oil pressure is what's critical unless you want your rods to come a knocking.

[Tristor]

Originally Posted by Evan55

So much this! Way too many stories of leaking lines and fittings.


Also, since you have a 2018, installing an oil cooler will kiss your engine warranty goodbye.

1) Subaru doesn't eliminate powertrain warranties for oil coolers. Track use on the other hand will violate your warranty.

2) If your oil cooler lines or fittings are leaking, you bought a shitty oil cooler. Buy better quality parts. Don't cheap out on essential systems.

[strat61caster]

Warranties cannot be invalidated

[Evan55]

Originally Posted by Tristor

1) Subaru doesn't eliminate powertrain warranties for oil coolers. Track use on the other hand will violate your warranty.

2) If your oil cooler lines or fittings are leaking, you bought a shitty oil cooler. Buy better quality parts. Don't cheap out on essential systems.

1. They most certainly can, and most likely will refuse any engine warranty claims after modifications to the oiling system. Track use will NOT void your warranty, so you need to come with evidence before making uninformed claims like that.

2. Thats a cute fantasy. Anything can fail.

[Goingnowherefast]

Originally Posted by Evan55

1. They most certainly can, and most likely will refuse any engine warranty claims after modifications to the oiling system. Track use will NOT void your warranty, so you need to come with evidence before making uninformed claims like that.

That's not how it works.

A single claim can be denied based on prior modifications. They cannot blanket "cancel" a warranty. It's on a case by case basis.

Just for interest, here's how the process works in full:

1. Person A brings car in for warranty work.
2. Dealership opens a warranty claim.
3. Dealership decides whether to honor the warranty work.
4. If a aftermarket modification is thought to have caused the warranty work, the OEM can deny the dealership reimbursement for the warranty work. I.E. the dealership loses money.
5. If the warranty claim is accepted by the dealership, they begin work on it.
6. Dealership bills the OEM for time (with a service fee modifier of around 10%), and parts.

Again, we need to understand each dealership is individually owned and privately operated. It is not operated by Subaru/Toyota. So each dealership can choose whether to take the risk on modified cars and warranty, because there's a potential for the dealership to lose a lot of time and money. That's why each dealership is different when it comes to claims for modified cars. Also it's important to note that dealerships want to do warranty work, as it makes up a sustainable portion of their revenue.

[Evan55]

Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast

That's not how it works.

A single claim can be denied based on prior modifications. They cannot blanket "cancel" a warranty. It's on a case by case basis.

Just for interest, here's how the process works in full:

1. Person A brings car in for warranty work.
2. Dealership opens a warranty claim.
3. Dealership decides whether to honor the warranty work.
4. If a aftermarket modification is thought to have caused the warranty work, the OEM can deny the dealership reimbursement for the warranty work. I.E. the dealership loses money.
5. If the warranty claim is accepted by the dealership, they begin work on it.
6. Dealership bills the OEM for time (with a service fee modifier of around 10%), and parts.

Again, we need to understand each dealership is individually owned and privately operated. It is not operated by Subaru/Toyota. So each dealership can choose whether to take the risk on modified cars and warranty, because there's a potential for the dealership to lose a lot of time and money. That's why each dealership is different when it comes to claims for modified cars. Also it's important to note that dealerships want to do warranty work, as it makes up a sustainable portion of their revenue.

Do you people even read?

I said nothing of "cancelling" a warranty. I said an engine warranty claim would almost certainly denied if you have an aftermarket oil cooler. Which it will be.

Im aware of the dealer to manufacturer approval workflow and for the purposes of this discussion its irrelevant. Denial is denial.

Ive never heard of a dealer doing non-routine warranty work without manufacturer approval and if they do, they are idiots. In fact in many cases something like an engine replacement is probably going to get a factory rep assigned to collect more info before approval



If you think you can install an oil cooler (which alters the oiling system and lowers oil pressure) then blow your engine and get it covered under warranty, you're living in the same fantasy world where oil coolers never fail.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Tristor

This is terrible advice. The issue with oil temperatures is not breaking down the oil... most full synthetics have breakdown temps in excess of 300F. It's the loss of oil pressure in an engine which already has oiling design flaws. If you are tracking the car, you need an engine oil cooler for reliability, period, full stop.

Loss of oil viscosity with temperature can somewhat be addressed by going to a 30, 40, or 50 weight oil. Personally, I run 5w30 for street track in the BRZ. But...

I don't think an oil cooler is a bad idea, but it might not be the magic bullet that addresses fundamental issues the stock oiling may have when subjected to track usage and a lot of high-rpm usage.
Peruse this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863

Personally, if I was worried I would go with an aftermarket or modded pickup tube before an oil cooler...

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by SmoothIsSlow

Hi all!

I bought my 2018 BRZ w/ PP with the intention of letting it be my daily driver/track car. I have done 5 events so far. Mods so far are GT Radial Champiro SX2s, Enkeki VR5 wheels, ATE Typ200 brake fluids, PFC 01/11 pads (new XP10s sitting on the shelf too), SPC camber bolts in the front.

Thinking about ARP extended studs so I can feel good about changing wheels all the time + be able to play with spacers. Also thinking about getting an oil cooler since I am super paranoid and always change oil after a track day or two (running 5w30 in 60 ~ 80F weather).

The studs and oil cooler aren't super crazy, but also not trivial to hide/undo if I ever decide to sell the car.

How do you approach this problem of balancing modding the car to be a reliable track car v.s. not having it be so crazy that you would lose all the money sunk into it?

Studs are easy to swap out. That is, if you know how to swap out studs. Even paying someone to do it is fairly simple.

Oil coolers are simple to swap out.

If you're worried about cost, then why mod it? If you are worried about maintaining the car 100% (as evidenced by your need to change oil trivially without the need to after 1-2 track days), why drive it?

I consider non-reversible mods to be things like widebody kits, roll cages, or generally any mod that requires a modification to the car that cannot be reversed (i.e. extra holes in sheet metal, etc)

[Tristor]

Originally Posted by Evan55

1. They most certainly can, and most likely will refuse any engine warranty claims after modifications to the oiling system. Track use will NOT void your warranty, so you need to come with evidence before making uninformed claims like that.

2. Thats a cute fantasy. Anything can fail.

1. Whether to make the warranty claim is up to the dealership service department. Subaru has an especially cagey record around honoring warranties. I never used the term "void", by the way, you are putting words in my mouth. I am WELL-ACQUAINTED with the law on the matter, I assure you.

Track use certainly does violate the terms of the warranty however, as the warranty is limited to defects caused by the manufacturer which occur under normal usage, taking the car on track falls outside normal usage.

There is a clear legal grey area where Subaru dealerships have a track record of refusing service and SOA backing them up. Toyota may feel differently, but it's well established in the Subaru community. One local dealer went so far as to hire a PI to post up at a local race track and photograph cars, and then they went and entered the photos and a track use note in every car's internal service record which was used to deny powertrain warranty claims.



Engine oil coolers, like any modification, do not directly invalidate the warranty. To refuse warranty coverage (and have it upheld if you pursue action), there needs to be sufficient evidence that the modification was at fault for the failure. A properly installed engine oil cooler is not likely to cause any faults, and most dealerships will not deny a claim based on its presence and if denied you can pursue with a high chance of success.


2. "Anything can fail" is a truism, but quality does matter. I don't understand your argument here unless it's a poor attempt at defending people being cheap with critical systems? Stop buying fleabay parts for important modifications... it greatly increases the risk for no benefit. Personally, if I were a dealership and I saw someone had used an OEM part from another car (e.g. FXT heat exchanger) or used a high-quality proven aftermarket part (Jackson Racing) I'd be less likely to suspect the modification than if they used garbage ebay parts... that goes generally for /any/ modification.


If warranty coverage is the most important thing to you, don't put your car on track and don't make any modifications. Simple as that. Otherwise, do what you want to enjoy your car, but have enough self-respect to be honest about the quality of the components you use and the possible risk and impact of that quality. Don't be an idiot.

Originally Posted by ZDan

Loss of oil viscosity with temperature can somewhat be addressed by going to a 30, 40, or 50 weight oil. Personally, I run 5w30 for street track in the BRZ. But...

I don't think an oil cooler is a bad idea, but it might not be the magic bullet that addresses fundamental issues the stock oiling may have when subjected to track usage and a lot of high-rpm usage.
Peruse this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863

Personally, if I was worried I would go with an aftermarket or modded pickup tube before an oil cooler...

Using heavier weight oil can help with pressure drops and is recommended for track use or any heavy use, even in the owner's manual (0W20 is normal spec, heavy use spec is 5W30 for this platform). But the temperature issues on this platform are well understand and reported, an engine oil cooler is the best, simplest, and most basic protection you can take to bring things under control under heavy use. There is absolutely no reason to avoid installing one if you are tracking the car, and a bevy of reasons why you should.


No, it's not going to solve the fundamental design flaws in the oiling system, but as you can see from the forums many people have tried and only a few things have proven out to help (machining front cover for oversized oil pump gear). Generally for stock power on a stock block, all of this is just unnecessary, basic pressure management is sufficient to prevent oiling related engine failures and there are hundreds of people with thousands of on-track miles on engines to prove it out. An engine oil cooler is the first line in that defense... arguing against it while simultaneously pointing to the exact flaws it helps with is weird to say the least.

[Tristor]

Originally Posted by Evan55

Denial is denial.

Denial isn't denial, as Subaru found out when they recently lost a class-action lawsuit related to ringland failures in EJ engines.

If you think you can install an oil cooler (which alters the oiling system and lowers oil pressure) then blow your engine and get it covered under warranty, you're living in the same fantasy world where oil coolers never fail.

You're calling people uninformed, but you're the one who is spouting off things which are fundamentally not true. An engine oil cooler does not result in a net pressure drop. There is a negative effect on pressure due to expanding the size of the oiling system, but this is mostly offset by increasing system volume due to the incompressibility of fluids in hydraulic systems. Furthermore, it results in a net increase in oil pressure at operating temperature once warm viscosity has been established due to the effects of the temperature/pressure curve and the fact it's cooling the engine oil... in other words the entire point of an oil cooler and why it helps with oil pressure on track.

As I pointed out in my first post, the ENTIRE point of an engine oil cooler on this platform is to prevent pressure drops at high temperatures under hard usage on track. It has nothing to do with oil breakdown as even without a cooler this platform rarely reaches those temperatures (uncooled cars sit around 270-280F on track, cooled they sit close to 210F, operating temperature is 190F, pressure drop becomes significant around 240F, oil breakdown for full synthetics typically starts around 300F).


If you'd ever installed an oil pressure gauge and taken measurements, you'd already know this firsthand.


I'm a former engineer that now works in product design with a focus on product liability and compliance (not in the auto industry though)... I've spent a considerable amount of time researching this topic because I track my car, you're woefully mistaken in saying my posts in this thread are uninformed.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Tristor

Denial isn't denial, as Subaru found out when they recently lost a class-action lawsuit related to ringland failures in EJ engines.


You're calling people uninformed, but you're the one who is spouting off things which are fundamentally not true. An engine oil cooler does not result in a net pressure drop. There is a negative effect on pressure due to expanding the size of the oiling system, but this is mostly offset by increasing system volume due to the incompressibility of fluids in hydraulic systems. Furthermore, it results in a net increase in oil pressure at operating temperature once warm viscosity has been established due to the effects of the temperature/pressure curve and the fact it's cooling the engine oil... in other words the entire point of an oil cooler and why it helps with oil pressure on track.

As I pointed out in my first post, the ENTIRE point of an engine oil cooler on this platform is to prevent pressure drops at high temperatures under hard usage on track. It has nothing to do with oil breakdown as even without a cooler this platform rarely reaches those temperatures (uncooled cars sit around 270-280F on track, cooled they sit close to 210F, operating temperature is 190F, pressure drop becomes significant around 240F, oil breakdown for full synthetics typically starts around 300F).


If you'd ever installed an oil pressure gauge and taken measurements, you'd already know this firsthand.


I'm a former engineer that now works in product design with a focus on product liability and compliance (not in the auto industry though)... I've spent a considerable amount of time researching this topic because I track my car, you're woefully mistaken in saying my posts in this thread are uninformed.

You gotta chill friend.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

You gotta chill friend.

Didn't you read? He's gotta keep the pressure up, not chill.