3S-GE BEAMS swap

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Yet he suggested that an engine that came out in 1980 and had been out of production for two years before the FT86 concept even existed was only cut because it would cost more than designing an all new engine with a very new fancy injection system?

Go figure...


Back on BEAMS topic, how much do these weigh? And is there a suitable bell housing to match up with an R154?

Ummm... the FA20 is an FB20 (already in the Impreza before the FR-S came out) adapted for direct-injection. Engine sourced from Subaru distributes the cost so both companies take a smaller hit than just Toyota taking a bigger hit sourcing an S-series plus emissions updates to maintain CAFE ratings, etc. There are a lot of cost factors which we can't debate without the facts. I'm just providing this tidbit because I thought it to be of interest for this thread.

Don't get why you need to get fresh. Maybe you're just that type of person. There's so much more info I pick up about this car such as the mid-cycle suspension changes that I've known since over a year ago or the no turbo update that I've known since forever (I occasionally talk to the guy who made that a mandatory requirement from the onset). Same circle of people in SoCal involved with Toyota defining the goals of the 86 successor. I just lose motivation to share with people who make me tired of this forum.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Ummm... the FA20 is an FB20 (already in the Impreza before the FR-S came out) adapted for direct-injection. Engine sourced from Subaru distributes the cost so both companies take a smaller hit than just Toyota taking a bigger hit sourcing an S-series plus emissions updates to maintain CAFE ratings, etc. There are a lot of cost factors which we can't debate without the facts. I'm just providing this tidbit because I thought it to be of interest for this thread.

Don't get why you need to get fresh. Maybe you're just that type of person. There's so much more info I pick up about this car such as the mid-cycle suspension changes that I've known since over a year ago or the no turbo update that I've known since forever (I occasionally talk to the guy who made that a mandatory requirement from the onset). Same circle of people in SoCal involved with Toyota defining the goals of the 86 successor. I just lose motivation to share with people who make me tired of this forum.

Um, the BEAMS was dead before the FT86 was a well formed idea. That would be on par with saying your 'source' claims the 2JZ is being considered for the new not-Supra.

As serial pointed out no sensible engineer is going to pass up an opportunity for a new, better engine at the same cost or even more than upgrading an iron block, pollution dinosaur (Albeit a fantastic performance dinosaur).

The no-turbo isn't news for anyone paying halfways attention to development, and mid cycle suspension changes are also predictable from precedent. The 3S claim just ruins any faint credibility gained from easy predictions.

And Aichi trumps SoCal.

Not that it's relevant to a swap thread anyways.




But BEAMS weight is. Is the touch under 300 lbs figure I found, true?

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

Ummm... the FA20 is an FB20 (already in the Impreza before the FR-S came out) adapted for direct-injection. Engine sourced from Subaru distributes the cost so both companies take a smaller hit than just Toyota taking a bigger hit sourcing an S-series plus emissions updates to maintain CAFE ratings, etc. There are a lot of cost factors which we can't debate without the facts. I'm just providing this tidbit because I thought it to be of interest for this thread.

Don't get why you need to get fresh. Maybe you're just that type of person. There's so much more info I pick up about this car such as the mid-cycle suspension changes that I've known since over a year ago or the no turbo update that I've known since forever (I occasionally talk to the guy who made that a mandatory requirement from the onset). Same circle of people in SoCal involved with Toyota defining the goals of the 86 successor. I just lose motivation to share with people who make me tired of this forum.

I understand both sides of the argument, but in all fairness, i havent seen you post this said information about the suspension mid cycle refresh.

It wouls be a joy to hear some new data about this mid cycle refresh and any new updates the car may have.

(To be fair, when the car was annouced, everyone who could read between the lines knew this car wasnt getting a turbo)

[Fizz]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

A friend who is "in the know" with Toyota said that the 3S-GE or some variant of it was in the original plan for the 86. But that idea got shot down due it driving cost up into 370Z territory, hence, the Subaru collab.

Well there may be "some" truth in that...but I don't the 3S-GE got even close to being in the shortlist during the early development stages. My understanding is this....

Early in 2007 Toyota approved the creation of a new sports car. Bear in mind that at this stage they had already bought a small stake in Subaru, which they later increased in 2008. Early in the project the engineering team did consider using existing in-line 4cyl engines, but that idea got rejected very quickly.

Since they already had some involvement in Subaru they then settled on using the boxer flat four....and a big reason or benefit with using the boxer (apart from the obvious low cg & handling benefits) was that its very low height made it possible for them to engineer a very low hood line. Also bear in mind that they would've had to meet tougher new pedestrian impact safety etc, which meant having a certain amount of gap between the top of the engine and underside of hood. Using a normal in-line engine would have almost certainly meant a higher hood line and the 86 would've looked pretty different to what it is today.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

But BEAMS weight is. Is the touch under 300 lbs figure I found, true?

Hmmm this number is harder to find than I thought, but I recall the turbo one being something like 350-400 ish maybe higher, and I always thought the NA one was around 350? The K20 is already over 300 lbs I think, but it carries more mass in the head than a 3S would.

[Manji]

145kg. With all ancillaries. Sans exh manifold.

Wouldn't need PS pump obviously.

[mav1178]

As someone previously heavily involved with SR20s... all I will say is the Toyota S engine is much like the SR20 or other crazy awesome engines from the 1980s and 1990s: it simply won't meet modern emissions requirements.

To just say this engine is awesome as an aftermarket project is accurate. To say "it should've came in the car from the start!" is to basically say "this car should've been made 10 years ago!"

That is what is fundamentally at play here. Tighter emissions requirements + a need to have more efficiency.

-alex

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by mav1178

As someone previously heavily involved with SR20s... all I will say is the Toyota S engine is much like the SR20 or other crazy awesome engines from the 1980s and 1990s: it simply won't meet modern emissions requirements.

To just say this engine is awesome as an aftermarket project is accurate. To say "it should've came in the car from the start!" is to basically say "this car should've been made 10 years ago!"

That is what is fundamentally at play here. Tighter emissions requirements + a need to have more efficiency.

-alex

That's of the point of this car being an homage to the 86 with a power level unfitting for modern times. People didn't understand the appeal of the AE86 in the '80s and the cycle repeats itself today.

This car is all about homages. 86mm exhaust tip openings and 86x86 bore and stroke are geeky specs. The geek in me wouldn't mind engine spec from a 4A-GE successor. Interior is modernized from the 2000GT with the "T" symbol on its steering wheel found in repeating patterns inside and outside the FR-S:


Yamaha-tuned engine would echo 2000GT and keep it more under the halo of the (new at the time) Yamaha-tuned LFA. And yup, they'd have to modernize the engine for today's standards. 240HP was the target power IIRC for a direct injected BEAMS. But the $5k+ delta for "just" 240hp (includes cost of chassis, tires, brakes, etc. tuned for that rated power) would make Americans flee to the 370Z.

@Dimman, I see you're cherry-picking things to discredit under the guise of debate so I'm done feeding you. I'm not here to degrade the forum... you have fun with that life.

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

That's of the point of this car being an homage to the 86 with a power level unfitting for modern times. People didn't understand the appeal of the AE86 in the '80s and the cycle repeats itself today.

Yup.

Swap to another engine if you are lacking in that department. Plenty of viable options such as the one shown in this thread.

But for anyone to say that this car should've came with an old(er) engine is really just ignorant of the realities of selling a car in today's climate.

-aelx

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by mav1178

As someone previously heavily involved with SR20s... all I will say is the Toyota S engine is much like the SR20 or other crazy awesome engines from the 1980s and 1990s: it simply won't meet modern emissions requirements.

To just say this engine is awesome as an aftermarket project is accurate. To say "it should've came in the car from the start!" is to basically say "this car should've been made 10 years ago!"

That is what is fundamentally at play here. Tighter emissions requirements + a need to have more efficiency.

-alex

Any engine with a newly designed head, VVT and direct injection can be made to pass modern smog requirements.

Jaden

[mav1178]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Any engine with a newly designed head, VVT and direct injection can be made to pass modern smog requirements.

Keyword: any.

You can make any engine pass emissions if you redesign it enough.

From a marketing/branding/production/cost perspective, does it make sense?

It is getting off topic from the swap but while I understand what you are saying, it needs to be considered in the context of engineering, production design, cost, and budget constraints. Saying it will pass vs it actually passing are two different things.

-alex

[Guff]

Swap all the things!

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Guff

Swap all the things!

Guff,

Next project for you: Turbo BEAMS in Supra setup to handle. Will knock ~100lbs off the nose of it. Like the Japan touring cars Castrol one...

Guy in Aus had one up to 340 hp crank all motor.

(Are you here because of reporting, BTW?)

[Guff]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Guff,

Next project for you: Turbo BEAMS in Supra setup to handle. Will knock ~100lbs off the nose of it. Like the Japan touring cars Castrol one...

Guy in Aus had one up to 340 hp crank all motor.

(Are you here because of reporting, BTW?)

Dude, I'd do it if I could find a cheap enough roller. Full JGTC Speed is what dreams are made of.

And no actually, I'm here because the topic is awesome, but I'm keeping a keen eye on a number of y'all too haha. Keep it civil and it's all good!

Now back to 3S stuff!