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Old 08-15-2017, 11:25 PM   #15
Shark_Bait88
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Idk that I'd consider them mutually exclusive, but I'm more than willing to admit that Mike is tremendously more experienced in this than I. Like not even comparably so.

I suppose "competitive" in both is the wrong word. Rather able to do both reliably, cost effectively, and making it fun. I think that's a fairly easy goal to accomplish. Afterall, we see it echoed over and over that it's best to track as close to possible until you find that something is limiting you. And i know people who are pretty skilled at HPDE, with room to grow still, who are running similar setups to what I proposed.

I certainly don't think an oil cooler is necessary for a Spec solo class, but I also don't see it adding any real benefit either. But having the allowance might make some people more inclined to participate in both activities though. It'd be a good way for the SCCA to encourage participation in both their Solo and PDX programs. Most guys I know that do both want an oil cooler for track days, which is a good idea, but are conflicted because of solo classing. You can always ask the people in your class if they don't mind, but it'd be nice to not have to deal with that.

I just think it makes sense in terms of the SCCA encouraging growth in as many of their programs as possible, especially seeing how many people take the path of autocross -> PDX -> club racing over time.

I know my notion of what a spec class would look like is probably far from perfect, but I think it makes decent sense.

P.S. typed this on my phone, and only half-assed on proofreading it, so please ignore any grammatical errors or seemingly rambling trains of thought.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
The two are mutually exclusive.
I don't imagine cutting up Corvette's and STI's with a Spec Twin... I just want it to be a little better suited to 30 hot laps at my slow ass pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster View Post
If there's a hole in SCCA classing for 86's I don't think it's between Street and Street Touring, a mild prep for STX doesn't break the bank at <$5k for 90% of the fun. Everybody knows it doesn't take long to put together a parts list for CS/DS that sails past $3k.
Mild prep is just that... mild prep. It's very easy to spend $20k on a more complete STX build.

I think your mild prep that is so simple and easy to do, would be a great class of its own. I just don't see any need for threaded spring perches...
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:21 PM   #17
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Mild prep?

Here's my idea of mild prep for a spec class

White list:

- Any oil cooler
- Any camber plate that does not alter spring or damper stroke/position
- Any rear lower control arm
- Any tranmission cooler
- Any differential cooler
- Any intake/exhaust components
- Any tune
- Gasoline only
- 180whp maximum, on a standardized dyno.
- 17x9 wheel
- 245/40/17 spec tire of sorts
- Open brake pads

2750 Minimum Car weight, including driver
- Includes gutting, standard safety provisions
- Up to 50 lbs ballast allowed, passenger side footwell only

Not mentioned = not allowed.
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Mild prep?

Here's my idea of mild prep for a spec class

White list:

- Any oil cooler
- Any camber plate that does not alter spring or damper stroke/position
- Any rear lower control arm
- Any tranmission cooler
- Any differential cooler
- Any intake/exhaust components
- Any tune
- Gasoline only
- 180whp maximum, on a standardized dyno.
- 17x9 wheel
- 245/40/17 spec tire of sorts
- Open brake pads

2750 Minimum Car weight, including driver
- Includes gutting, standard safety provisions
- Up to 50 lbs ballast allowed, passenger side footwell only

Not mentioned = not allowed.
So stock springs and dampers and sways?
No springs and dampers = weird class with wheels and tires that wide and suspension that soft
Free springs and dampers = STX + more money and incentive to make the car unstreetable
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Mild prep?

Here's my idea of mild prep for a spec class

<laundry list of road race specific mods deleted>
this spec class is for Solo, not road racing.
thanks for playing.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Mild prep?

Here's my idea of mild prep for a spec class

White list:

- Any camber plate that does not alter spring or damper stroke/position
- Any rear lower control arm
- Any intake/exhaust components
- Any tune
- 180whp maximum, on a standardized dyno.
While I'm no pro on this topic, what about having a set standard for this rather than leaving it open?

Like:
-OFT Header and Stage 2 tune + OEM air filter + Nameless single exit axleback exhaust
-SPC LCAs + Toe bushings

I would think this would bring more of a level playing field and have a set standard to have less difference between the vehicles. I know the Miata Cup cars use the same brake/wheel/tire combo and have sealed engines. Hell, everything is exactly the same on those cars, aside from the seat and colors/livery.
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Mild prep?

Here's my idea of mild prep for a spec class

White list:

- Any oil cooler
- Any camber plate that does not alter spring or damper stroke/position
- Any rear lower control arm
- Any tranmission cooler
- Any differential cooler
- Any intake/exhaust components
- Any tune
- Gasoline only
- 180whp maximum, on a standardized dyno.
- 17x9 wheel
- 245/40/17 spec tire of sorts
- Open brake pads

2750 Minimum Car weight, including driver
- Includes gutting, standard safety provisions
- Up to 50 lbs ballast allowed, passenger side footwell only

Not mentioned = not allowed.
Swing and a very big miss. I'm glad you're not involved in making autocross rules.

For spec twin to work, it needs to be accessible (read: easy/cheap to have a competitive car) and it needs to be fun (read: fix some of the warts of the car). That's going to look something like "go to Tire Rack, buy this kit, install it, you're good." Something like this: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...it/?pdk=AQADAQ

Spec twin probably also means dealing with the torque dip somehow - again, in a cost effective way where nobody has any real advantage by spending money on extra parts or testing. That's either specific header/tune or just specific tune. Hopefully SCCA sacks up and moves past their fear of technology they don't understand in that respect.
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:15 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by renfield90 View Post
Swing and a very big miss. I'm glad you're not involved in making autocross rules.

For spec twin to work, it needs to be accessible (read: easy/cheap to have a competitive car) and it needs to be fun (read: fix some of the warts of the car). That's going to look something like "go to Tire Rack, buy this kit, install it, you're good." Something like this: https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...it/?pdk=AQADAQ

Spec twin probably also means dealing with the torque dip somehow - again, in a cost effective way where nobody has any real advantage by spending money on extra parts or testing. That's either specific header/tune or just specific tune. Hopefully SCCA sacks up and moves past their fear of technology they don't understand in that respect.
I'm far more experience in balancing and game theory than you think. The proposed spec was for a track class, not an autox class, as a response to a "crossover" class.

A realistic "spec twin" Autox class?

- Camber bolts
- Tires
- Open dampers
- Open sways
- "street tires".

No other mods. If you're so insistent on a "spec" damper, then make OEM spec. As you said, make it accessible. Less mods, more accessible.

Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it?

Torque dip doesn't need to be eliminated; everyone is subject to it. It's a "feature", not a "bug".

As always, deeper pockets mean larger advantage. If you want to eliminate the "deep pockets" advantage as much as reasonable, you can even:

- Spec alignment
- OEM 17x7 wheels only
- Spec tire (and size)
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Old 08-17-2017, 12:45 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I'm far more experience in balancing and game theory than you think. The proposed spec was for a track class, not an autox class, as a response to a "crossover" class.

A realistic "spec twin" Autox class?

- Camber bolts
- Tires
- Open dampers
- Open sways
- "street tires".

No other mods. If you're so insistent on a "spec" damper, then make OEM spec. As you said, make it accessible. Less mods, more accessible.

Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it?

Torque dip doesn't need to be eliminated; everyone is subject to it. It's a "feature", not a "bug".

As always, deeper pockets mean larger advantage. If you want to eliminate the "deep pockets" advantage as much as reasonable, you can even:

- Spec alignment
- OEM 17x7 wheels only
- Spec tire (and size)


That class already exists
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
I'm far more experience in balancing and game theory than you think. The proposed spec was for a track class, not an autox class, as a response to a "crossover" class.

A realistic "spec twin" Autox class?

- Camber bolts
- Tires
- Open dampers
- Open sways
- "street tires".

No other mods. If you're so insistent on a "spec" damper, then make OEM spec. As you said, make it accessible. Less mods, more accessible.

Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it?

Torque dip doesn't need to be eliminated; everyone is subject to it. It's a "feature", not a "bug".

As always, deeper pockets mean larger advantage. If you want to eliminate the "deep pockets" advantage as much as reasonable, you can even:

- Spec alignment
- OEM 17x7 wheels only
- Spec tire (and size)
Idea from Spec is to let everyone onto the same playing field and thus eliminate the players that spend $4k on MCS or JRZ suspension.

If I was to take a stab at it...

17x8 Wheels, +- 5mm offset with a min weight the wheel must weigh
Eibach Springs/Swaybars
Sealed Koni Yellows - Dyno'd to maintain spec standards
Camber Bolts
RCAs
200tw Tire, later to be one spec manufacture
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:41 AM   #25
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Idea from Spec is to let everyone onto the same playing field and thus eliminate the players that spend $4k on MCS or JRZ suspension.

If I was to take a stab at it...

17x8 Wheels, +- 5mm offset with a min weight the wheel must weigh
Eibach Springs/Swaybars
Sealed Koni Yellows - Dyno'd to maintain spec standards
Camber Bolts
RCAs
200tw Tire, later to be one spec manufacture
This right here is more in line with what I think they'll do, I think they're going to have some sort of catback allowance though. Remember the SCCA is all about being able to take your car you already own and making it fun/competitive, they know pretty much everybody already has an exhaust and that it's such a common mod that catback I think will be in there.

I highly doubt headers will go in there unless it is a standardized one. Because a tomei vs an ACE has a pretty big power difference.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:35 AM   #26
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Idea from Spec is to let everyone onto the same playing field and thus eliminate the players that spend $4k on MCS or JRZ suspension.

If I was to take a stab at it...

17x8 Wheels, +- 5mm offset with a min weight the wheel must weigh
Eibach Springs/Swaybars
Sealed Koni Yellows - Dyno'd to maintain spec standards
Camber Bolts
RCAs
200tw Tire, later to be one spec manufacture
Even that can be gamed. Spec dampers are virtually impossible to enforce, and can be designed to "degrade differently" if you know what I mean.

Custom wheels can be made to meet a minimum weight while minimizing inertia.

Without a hard spec part that is common, you cannot eliminate the spenders. Even then, there's always the guy that will show up with sticker tires to every event.
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Old 08-17-2017, 10:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by CSG Mike View Post
Even that can be gamed. Spec dampers are virtually impossible to enforce, and can be designed to "degrade differently" if you know what I mean.

Custom wheels can be made to meet a minimum weight while minimizing inertia.

Without a hard spec part that is common, you cannot eliminate the spenders. Even then, there's always the guy that will show up with sticker tires to every event.
If they're sourced through 1 manufacture, and sealed by that manufacture...AKA Koni of America. Then I would see it being very difficult to game that system.

Yes, someone could elect to have quicker rebuild intervals, thus having a "fresh" damper. But not like you can get said damper through multiple vendors and have shim inside one cater to your preference.

Sure, custom wheels will and can exist, but if a reasonable weight is determined and you can source a wheel that's within 1 lb of that, does that other person really benefit? I'd doubt that.

Lastly, depending on what tires are offered and what exist, "sticker tires" aren't really a thing anymore.

I just corded a set of Rival 1.5s with about 150 runs, and won Oscoda ProSolo on them by close to a second. Most tires also need a couple heat cycles to come in.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:47 AM   #28
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Even that can be gamed. Spec dampers are virtually impossible to enforce, and can be designed to "degrade differently" if you know what I mean.
Claimer rule at big events, cough up the money and you buy the fast guys dampers. 16 nuts and they're yours, bring a spare set of stock suspension to get you home. If the cost of the claim is the same as retail for the dampers it's more expensive than getting your own rebuilt, theoretically the person getting bought out hasn't lost anything (except maybe a fresh rebuild) and gets to buy a fresh set.

Edit: I think I'd prefer that over a sealed/spec/regularly dyno'd damper. Much cheaper overall on the sport to regulate than paying for damper dyno time, allows freedom to pick Koni, Bilstein, or alternative (like OE). And despite what you may think (oh no the top 3 cars are going to have their dampers stolen every big event!) claims are rare. As a kid when someone claimed an engine there were whispers coast to coast of what happened. Before everyone put everything online so it was literal word of mouth.

Yes someone with big pockets can go out and get dyno time and custom rebuilds and dyno a hundred dampers to find the best set, but when the risk exists that all that effort will be wiped out it keeps people from pushing the envelope too far beyond the costs.

And of course if anything is found illegal during teardown (i.e. slotted bolt holes or perches at the wrong height) the claimer gets refunded and the parts either confiscated, branded, etc. as any other tech inspection failure.

Edit 2: Yes this doesn't prevent people from blowing thousands of dollars, it just raises the risk in the risk-reward equation and typically keeps people from going bonkers. For example, claim is ~$900 enough for a set of new Koni Yellow or Bilstein B6's, but that probably wouldn't prevent me from paying ~$600 to send a set of Bilsteins to Poway to have a custom valving done on them. If I do well and get claimed I suck up the loss and repeat the process, cost of doing well in the class. But it would probably prevent 99% of competitors from going out and paying someone like FCM for a fancy rebuild because at that point the returns are minimal.

Vendors will likely put together packages like a matched set of Koni Yellows for $200 more than off the shelf, but I don't think that's a bad thing.
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