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Engine, Exhaust, Transmission Discuss the FR-S | 86 | BRZ engine, exhaust and drivetrain.


View Poll Results: How do you downshift?
Nothing 16 10.39%
Rev Match Only 116 75.32%
Double clutch 22 14.29%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-01-2017, 02:09 AM   #113
Keenercarguy
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This thread is as salty as the Dead Sea and I love it
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:14 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Zentec View Post
Trq gets you going horsepower keeps you going.
Old wives tail. Power is just the results of torque at a given RPM.

Torque is a force (usually expressed as a moment of a force in ftlb or Nm due to it's angular nature about a pivot)

Power is energy over time taken - usually expressed in HP or Watts. Both are energy over time. Watts is Joules per second, a HP is approximately 750 watts.

RPM is a speed.

Speed is distance over time - revolutions per minute.

Work done = force * distance.
Power = Work done / time.

Given those facts to any high school graduate studying maths and they will rearrange to show that.

Power = Torque * RPM * Constant.

The constant only depends on the units you use. However it can be simplified to just:

Power ~= Torque * RPM.

It's the same thing as: PV=nRT or PV ~= nT

For any given torque and rpm I can give you the power. For any given power and rpm I can give you the torque.

Ergo torque and power are different expressions of the same thing.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:21 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Zentec View Post
Sure double clutching you are using the clutch twice as much so in the long term yes you will wear out the clutch faster as you are using it 2 times as more per gear shift.
Does pressing the brake pedal multiple times when stopped wear out your brakes faster? How about pressing the brakes twice instead of once for a single stop?

There's going to be next to zero slippage when letting out the clutch in neutral, and no noticeable wear from that. Same thing with a properly rev matched upshift or downshift. The slippage from taking off once from a stop is more wear on the clutch than a week (or more) of double clutching shifts.

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Your forgetting one major point that's syncros the job of the syncro is match the speed of the collar so that is is close to the same speed as the gear so your mass is rotating at the same speed so when the gear is changed and the clutch engages when you let it out your in that gear. With out syncros that is the purpos of double clutching to match the rotating mass and the collar to the gear that you are going in to.
No one is suggesting double clutching is necessary on the majority of shifts, but you made the bold statement that it would break the gearbox.

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Originally Posted by Zentec View Post
Each one of your gears has a ratio for putting torque to the differential. First gear is the highest and you are putting the most trq the differential. Your last gear the smallest will keep you balenced at low rpm so when your crusing so you will have less trq going to it. Trq gets you going horsepower keeps you going.
WTF did that come from?
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Old 09-01-2017, 07:00 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by wparsons View Post
I find that doesn't work if you want a quick downshift unless you're going slower. Some corners are just too slow for 2nd if you want any punch out of them. Not common, but it happens.
I agree that's why I say depends on what your doing.


I'd love to hear how you think that double clutching will harm the car in any way... but I have a feeling you don't actually know how transmissions/drivetrains work based on that statement.


So I explain how I think that it harms the car and explain how transmissions work and the job syncros that makes it unessary for double clutching on a syncro transsimison. I never said once that it would shatter the gear box but your comment made it sound that way. There are lots of parts that you can wear out by doing one thing or another. If you rest your hand on the shifter all the time you can increase wear on your gear fork even says so in your hand book. The more you use and hold the clutch either fully depressed or just resting your foot on it can wear out your clutch and throw out bearing that's why it's recommend sitting in N at a light.

Like I have said before it's not nessary. This not a jab it's a fact that's why we have syncros. With it not nessary it's your car drive it how you want to drive it. Be happy in how you drive we all have different driving styles techniques ect.

With regards to the spring in my og post I said it could be changed with a spring of a different rate and ultramaroons clutch adjustment for even better clutch feel. Personally I think not having a spring there can promote wear and I've explained how I think that. Maybe your right maybe your wrong I don't know since I am not going to be removing it and keeping out. Note I did take it out to see the feel and travel so in my application I put it back in I might try the Mtec spring or just do ultramaroons adjustment. I don't have any hard data on to the same point neither do you so until I do I will maintain my opinion and I respect you for keeping yours. Remember just cause you don't see or feel it now dosent mean it's still not happing with regards to wear. Example in 3 of my subies my front right strut bushing would always ware faster than the driver side and cause a light clunk when turning. Nothing was moded maybe I make to many right turns or it was just more prone to ware I don't know.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:42 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Zentec View Post
So I explain how I think that it harms the car and explain how transmissions work and the job syncros that makes it unessary for double clutching on a syncro transsimison. I never said once that it would shatter the gear box but your comment made it sound that way.
This is your original comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zentec View Post
To everyone
Improve your shifting by proper rev matching and heel and toe (because each gear has a certain ratio go learn how transmittions and clutches work first) . If you want to destroy your car keep double clutching or do what you see or hear in movies because it sound cool or what ever. In the end it's your car do what you want. Just don't come post help my clutch or transmission problems and forget to include in your post you don't know how to drive a MT properly and you were double clutching the whole time.
Slight clutch wear is in no way equivalent to destroying your car...
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:58 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by wparsons View Post
This is your original comment: not correct my original comment and first was
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Originally Posted by Zentec View Post
Look plain and simple yes you can double clutch. But it will ware out your clutch double times faster. You don't need to double clutch modern cars it's pointless because of our syncros. I know the 17s on gear 1-3 have 3 syncros each. Proper rev matching and heel and toe down shifting will improve your smooth shifting and proper weight shift in corners if your using it. If you know and use these properly you will save your clutch and transmission. Now if your just learning your going to ware it a little faster.
more true comment

To everyone
Improve your shifting by proper rev matching and heel and toe (because each gear has a certain ratio go learn how transmittions and clutches work first) . Serious comment

If you want to destroy your car keep double clutching or do what you see or hear in movies because it sound cool or what ever. less serious with F&F jab.

In the end it's your car do what you want. Just don't come post help my clutch or transmission problems and forget to include in your post you don't know how to drive a MT properly and you were double clutching the whole time. Funnier jab comment.

I'm sorry if you take that one little jab at the F&F comment as literal especially with all the other F&F comments.

Slight clutch wear is in no way equivalent to destroying your car...
BECAUSE IF YOU DO WHAT YOU SEE IN MOVIES YEA YOU CAN DESTROY YOUR CAR espically if your living your like a quarter mile at a time in first gear. Or you find the hidden level by going from 6th gear to reverse yea that can ruin things. Funny

Maybe I'm not as funny as others o well. Sorry for the poor humor attempt everyone. Please try not to take a fragment from a compleat sentence and take it out of context to make it fit your narrow view though.

But the fact is your clutch and throw out bearing will wear is the down side to D.C. The up side with revmatching and D.C saves syncros and can help you get into 1st from a higher speed. Is it nessary no can you do it yes. Do what makes you happy.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:42 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ultramaroon View Post
I don't know why but the transmissions vary dramatically from on to the next. There is a pretty big crowd of us in the Portland metro area and we've all driven each other's cars. Some easily drop into first on a roll. Just as many are like mine which fight you unless you double-clutch.
How about a difference in the same transmission with a different engine?

Before my engine replacement, my transmission was smooth. I could drop into first easily, and I never got the crunching people talked about here. I thought what people were describing was operator error.

Since I got the car back with the new engine, the exact same transmission feels completely different. Now it no longer goes into first very easily, third and fifth are notchy or crunchy on downshifts, and if I really pull hard it will crunch going into sixth. It also feels like the gates are not quite in the same place. For example, downshifting from fifth to fourth used to be a silky smooth motion, but now the shifter will get hung up halfway down. And I now have the sixth gear whine above 70 mph.

I took it back in to have it checked. The tech who did the engine swap drove it and said this was normal behavior. I drove with him riding along and pointed out what it was doing, and he still said it was normal.

I don't understand what happened. I don't think it's damage from the loss of the engine. It makes me wonder if there's something to the claims people have made about the transmission mount bushings improving shifting, as in perhaps the crunchy transmissions are somehow not aligned properly when the mount is torqued down.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:54 PM   #120
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How about a difference in the same transmission with a different engine?
My money's on whatever fluid they used to refill it. I don't discuss it because I'm not a Motul-or-whatever fanboi but it does make a difference. I miss the oem fluid because it was quiet. I replaced with Redline MT90 and, although it's fine, it does feel different, maybe a little more notchy and definitely noisier.

Do you notice more noise sitting in neutral, especially first thing in the morning?

Or *shudder* maybe they underfilled it.
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:02 AM   #121
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My money's on whatever fluid they used to refill it.
Nope. They didn't drain and refill it. I don't think the transmission even left the vehicle for the engine swap. The fluid in it only had 5,000 miles on it at the time. The tech stuck his finger in it while it was on the lift, and the level was fine.

The tech did suggest I try refilling with Motul to see if it might smooth it out, so I may give it a shot. But it wasn't the fluid that changed. It was doing great with that same fill before the engine swap.

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Do you notice more noise sitting in neutral, especially first thing in the morning?
Nope. It sounds the same in neutral. The only change in sound is above 70 mph, and of course the crunches (which I feel more than hear).
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Old 09-02-2017, 02:46 PM   #122
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Nope...

Nope...
Man, I've got nothing. We've been following each other here for years so I know you have your shit together.

I reread your description. Are you absolutely sure the clutch really fully disengages? This is something that I learned to consider after having a discussion with @Stang70Fastback about actually double-clutching versus blipping in neutral for the first gear downshift. I didn't believe him until I tried it, but even with the clutch disengaged, if I wind up the engine on a roll it contributes just enough to get things matched up.

So my point is, if the clutch drags even a teeny tiny bit, maybe thats causing the symptoms you're feeling.
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Old 09-02-2017, 03:16 PM   #123
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I reread your description. Are you absolutely sure the clutch really fully disengages?
The tech checked it and said it's adjusted properly. He could be wrong, but I got a pretty good feeling from him. Honestly I haven't been into it myself.

It can be driven like it is now that I've gotten used to the difference. I have 27K miles left on the warranty, and I have already gotten my complaint in, so if it's doing damage it should make itself known before the clock runs out. I'm covered as long as I don't do anything stupid to it.

I just thought it was interesting that not only are transmission installs different from car to car, they're different in the same car.
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Old 09-02-2017, 03:49 PM   #124
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I just thought it was interesting that not only are transmission installs different from car to car, they're different in the same car.
Agreed. I've found that this machine doesn't hide much. Delightfully old school feel.
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Old 09-02-2017, 06:15 PM   #125
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Paragraph getting too long guys... falling asleep here.

I only double clutch the few times I grind my gears...
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:06 PM   #126
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Paragraph getting too long guys... falling asleep here.

I only double clutch the few times I grind my gears...
Short attention span on the Fail Boat.
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