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View Poll Results: What name should Toyota use for the production Toyota FT-1?
Supra gets my vote! 367 74.59%
I don't know, but its time for a new name. 125 25.41%
Voters: 492. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-29-2017, 10:17 AM   #1625
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Originally Posted by ZDan View Post

GTR is fast in spite of its weight, not because of it. If adding weight made cars faster, race teams would do it to the extent that the rules allowed. Instead they remove as much weight as possible, to the extent the rules allow. But hey, maybe they're just idiots...
This. Just look at Super GT, BTCC, or DTM; they impose weight penalties on cars that qualify super fast to level out the playing field. Weight is added as a penalty
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:45 AM   #1626
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Weren't early model R35s crap on public roads? To get the thing to preform, despite its curb weight, they stuck on big tires and stiffened the suspension. So it wasn't comfortable.

I know I have read numerous articles about the latest GTRs being overall slower and less agile because they made it more livable.

Anyway, my understanding has always been that the less weight in the car, the more compliance you can add to the suspension because you can tune the geometry to deal with the movement of the wheels, rather than the body. I'm also guessing that the type of suspension matters as well. The 86 would probably ride like a dream and still tackle corners if Toyota had the budget to invest into a more complex setup.

Maybe double wishbones all around would help? Or whatever Koenigsegg is doing with their Triplex Suspension.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:03 AM   #1627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
To add a few more things about weight and performance...

Is AWD worth the weight in performance? Maybe it could be.

Is a dual clutch transmission worth the weight over a single clutch? Maybe.

Are larger brakes better? Maybe, depends.

Is a stiffer chassis or suspension better? Depends.

Is magnetic suspension better? Maybe.

Is ABS n other traction tech worth the weight? Maybe.

Will weight in general help with traction when aero is lacking? Maybe.

Adding weight can very well lead to better stopping, turning and accelerating. The fact that the GTR did the Nurburgring faster than cars with more power that are lighter is a testament to that fact.

You are reversing cause and effect in your theory. Some components work better due to how they function and weigh more because of how they that function is achieved. The improvement is not related to the increased weight. If they could get the same function out of a reduced weight component it would work even better.


Weight in itself is very detrimental to stopping, turning and accelerating.
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:37 AM   #1628
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Let's stay Supra specific here guys!
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:57 AM   #1629
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If Toyota wants to keep re-educating the public about the essence of sports cars they would aim for lightweight and fun to drive for the Supra just like what they did with the 86. Nissan on the other hand have always aimed for high tech even going back decades, but seems like their marketers will eventually force the company to turn every model into a pig SUV as they no longer cater to enthusiasts.
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Old 08-29-2017, 12:57 PM   #1630
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https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top...no-san-mr-gt-r

Ill repost the link a third time because it is obvious no one read it. Also, 2.7 seconds 0-60 in 2007 with a 193 mph top speed with a .97 lateral g. Those numbers have since improved to over one g n so on.

If the Supra hopes to live up to its predecessor then it will be heavier. Like the GTR, it will need more to do more, so inevitably the extra weight will be worth the gains, and it will also make the car accessable to your average driver like Mr. Mizuno-San mentions in the article.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:18 PM   #1631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/top...no-san-mr-gt-r

Ill repost the link a third time because it is obvious no one read it. Also, 2.7 seconds 0-60 in 2007 with a 193 mph top speed with a .97 lateral g. Those numbers have since improved to over one g n so on.

If the Supra hopes to live up to its predecessor then it will be heavier. Like the GTR, it will need more to do more, so inevitably the extra weight will be worth the gains, and it will also make the car accessable to your average driver like Mr. Mizuno-San mentions in the article.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat. The Supra is an FR GT car, it always has been. It will not be 86 light, nor will it be GTR heavy. Transaxle AWD systems are great and all but they accomplish something totally different to what the Supra ethos is.

And I used to drink the Mizuno kool-aid myself back in the day, but then I started driving more cars and realized that he has a fair amount of marketing obligation. I've driven GTRs, and I love them, but to say that a fast car has to be heavy is just not true.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:45 PM   #1632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
"An F1 car weighs 560kg, more than 600kg with the driver. How much downforce does an F1 car generate? Currently, it is around 1,300kg. So what is the total weight? 1,860kg [about the same as a GT-R with the driver on board, coincidentally]. A GT1 racing car weighs between 1,200 and 1,300kg. Plus downforce of 600kg, the actual weight on the car is 1,800kg… you see, very easy!”

Love the guy's enthusiasm, but he's full of it. Newsflash, a 2012 F1 car will outcorner a 2012 FIA GT1 car by a HUGE margin. It's not even close. And are they really actually trying to suggest that the GT-R is in the same league?! Fricking absurd...

Cornering g's are lateral force generated *divided by vehicle weight*.

With the same lateral grip available, f1 car will pull twice the cornering g's and corner 41% faster vs. a twice-as-heavy GT1 car.

Quote:
If the Supra hopes to live up to its predecessor then it will be heavier. Like the GTR, it will need more to do more, so inevitably the extra weight will be worth the gains, and it will also make the car accessable to your average driver like Mr. Mizuno-San mentions in the article.
In addition to weight hindering performance (which it does), it also hinders FUN. Personally, I'd rather drive a small lightweight go-kart than an oversized, overwrought, overweight tank...
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:19 PM   #1633
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"An F1 car weighs 560kg, more than 600kg with the driver. How much downforce does an F1 car generate? Currently, it is around 1,300kg. So what is the total weight? 1,860kg [about the same as a GT-R with the driver on board, coincidentally]. A GT1 racing car weighs between 1,200 and 1,300kg. Plus downforce of 600kg, the actual weight on the car is 1,800kg… you see, very easy!”
This is garbage nonsense.

- andrew
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:11 PM   #1634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guff View Post
There are more ways than one to skin a cat. The Supra is an FR GT car, it always has been. It will not be 86 light, nor will it be GTR heavy. Transaxle AWD systems are great and all but they accomplish something totally different to what the Supra ethos is.

And I used to drink the Mizuno kool-aid myself back in the day, but then I started driving more cars and realized that he has a fair amount of marketing obligation. I've driven GTRs, and I love them, but to say that a fast car has to be heavy is just not true.
Because you asked, I don't want to keep going off topic. I want to keep talking about the benefits weight has for traction on a daily driven supercar by a non-professional driver, but if I don't concede the last word this will keep going. In the end we will have to see what Toyota brings.
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Old 08-29-2017, 05:37 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 View Post
Ill repost the link a third time because it is obvious no one read it.
Do you also buy into the idea that the torque dip is necessary for the 86's success like Tetsuya Tada poses? That with the dip the car offers better fuel economy than without?

The only point you need to make is that when it turns out heavy it won't be the end of the world and it can still be a fast fun car.

At the end of the day there's a lot of marketing coverup for a car's deficiencies, even when you're talking to the 'legit' people from the company. It's their job.

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Let's stay Supra specific here guys!
This isn't a car fan-fiction thread?

How can you be specific for something that doesn't exist?

Are you saying that the Supra WON'T have the GT-R's twin turbo V6 AWD?

You're oppressing my head-cannon! Reported!


In other news, relevant video, I real dig this channel.
https://youtu.be/MqarV06DDWo
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:34 PM   #1636
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Man, if only the GTR weighed another 1,000lbs just imagine how much faster it would be!
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:22 PM   #1637
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If the new Supra is anything BUT a 3400 lb 400 hp 6 cyl TT i'd be shocked. Don't think it'll be much different than a Japanese M2.
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Old 08-29-2017, 09:56 PM   #1638
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I'd probably be okay with that, as long as it's cylinders are all in a line, and comes with three pedals.
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