86 vs new Supra--review by TFL car

[James H]

but its ugly and they are asking a lot for a Toyota badge. Its competing with likes of C63, Mustang GT, Corvette, M2, Cayman (base) etc. Sold out means nothing nowadays, could be ploy to generate hype by marketers to have only small number made available at launch. I rather have a BRZ, even though it has less power. Its infinitely better looking.

[steel86gt]

Originally Posted by James H

but its ugly and they are asking a lot for a Toyota badge. Its competing with likes of C63, Mustang GT, Corvette, M2, Cayman (base) etc. Sold out means nothing nowadays, could be ploy to generate hype by marketers to have only small number made available at launch. I rather have a BRZ, even though it has less power. Its infinitely better looking.

But unlike the newest generation of GTR and NSX, it is really remarkable that Toyota priced their sports car at the same price they charged for the MKIV Supra turbo back in 1998! So factoring in the new automotive tech available on this latest Supra and with its performance and the revelation of the recent dyno numbers I think your argument of charging too much for this latest creation doesnt stand! Especially when the 2019 Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser are at similar and even more expensive price points then this Supra! The styling and looks on the other hand are purely subjective. I myself am waiting on the wide body kits to appear to see how it transforms this beast

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by steel86gt

But unlike the newest generation of GTR and NSX, it is really remarkable that Toyota priced their sports car at the same price they charged for the MKIV Supra turbo back in 1998! So factoring in the new automotive tech available on this latest Supra and with its performance and the revelation of the recent dyno numbers I think your argument of charging too much for this latest creation doesnt stand! Especially when the 2019 Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser are at similar and even more expensive price points then this Supra! The styling and looks on the other hand are purely subjective. I myself am waiting on the wide body kits to appear to see how it transforms this beast

I think the price is amazing when you consider the whole project. Came in at least $10K under what I guessed.
Comparing the price to that of Mustangs with their massive sales base and cheap versions that help differ the costs of the expensive ones is not even close to being realistic.

[reeves]

Originally Posted by James H

but its ugly and they are asking a lot for a Toyota badge.

Originally Posted by Tcoat

I think the price is amazing when you consider the whole project. Came in at least $10K under what I guessed.
Comparing the price to that of Mustangs with their massive sales base and cheap versions that help differ the costs of the expensive ones is not even close to being realistic.

The price of a late 90's Mark IV is $70K new in today's cost USD. $50K USD for the new Supra is outstanding for what you get!

Most critics of the new Supra probably have never even driven a STOCK Mark IV before. That thing was a bloated pig on steroids.. sporty, but not agile by today's track-ready standards. The engine was indestructible, but in stock form it was a GT car, mostly good at 1) cruising and 2) being fast in a straight line.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by reeves

Most critics of the new Supra probably have never even driven a STOCK Mark IV before. That thing was a bloated pig on steroids.. sporty, but not agile by today's track-ready standards. The engine was indestructible, but in stock form it was a GT car, mostly good at 1) cruising and 2) being fast in a straight line.

I think that's a bit of a myth. People may have *used* it primarily for those purposes, but it was still (reportedly) a great-handling sports/supercar.

Car and Driver tested it vs. FD RX-7 (all hail), Porsche 968, 300ZX-TT, Corvette, and 3000GT-VR4. Granted some of those are also pigs relative to what I consider *real* sports cars, but the FD? That's the real deal at 2840 lb... Supra was 3480 lb., so not exactly a lightweight, but a bit lighter than the ZX-TT (3540 lb.) and a lot lighter than the massively-overweight 3860(!) lb. VR4

They ranked the Supra first overall, and rated it 10/10 for both "handling" and for "fun-to-drive", vs. 9/10 and 10/10 for the FD!

I've never been a big fan of the MkIV Supra, but give it its due, it wasn't any slouch in the handling department...

Chek it out: http://www.derekspratt.com/PDFs/Auto...ber%201993.pdf

[reeves]

You're right that was a bit harsh about the mkIV. It just didn't do it for me when I drove it back then, but I am biased towards light-weight cars I can rev the snot out of in everyday driving. In that respect, I enjoyed my integra and mr2 more. My all-trac Celica was the worst of the bunch. And the BRZ blows all of them away in the fun-to-drive-everyday category. The RX-7 is the import unicorn I've never had the pleasure to drive unfortunately.

If the chasis & suspension of the new supra is as good as people are saying, I'd imagine a stripped-down 4-cylinder version of it would be perfect for me... and superior to all of those above.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by reeves

You're right that was a bit harsh about the mkIV. It just didn't do it for me when I drove it back then, but I am biased towards light-weight cars I can rev the snot out of in everyday driving.

I'm with you, I never really liked the MkIV. For me, quite a bit on the heavy side, and also it just doesn't look quite right.

In that respect, I enjoyed my integra and mr2 more. My all-trac Celica was the worst of the bunch. And the BRZ blows all of them away in the fun-to-drive-everyday category. The RX-7 is the import unicorn I've never had the pleasure to drive unfortunately.

Slow 16.6:1 steering ratio is kind of a letdown in the FD. Mine was fun and quite interesting to drive on the road and track with a 550hp 6.8 liter LS3 in it! But around town the BRZ is more fun to drive, and at the track it's easily 90% as much fun without being nearly as likely to self-destruct or kill me...

If the chasis & suspension of the new supra is as good as people are saying, I'd imagine a stripped-down 4-cylinder version of it would be perfect for me... and superior to all of those above.

Yeah, me too, I really hope we do ultimately get it in the US!

[extrashaky]

One really encouraging sign in these reviews is that they all take place at corporate press events that include both the Supra and the 86 rather than simply spotlighting the Supra and relegating the 86 to noise in the background. They're not just marketing the Supra. They're marketing the sports car lineup. Not all manufacturers would do that for fear of taking the spotlight off the main attraction.

I think that's an encouraging sign that Toyota may still be pursuing the "Three Brothers" approach Tada discussed a few years back of offering a stable of sports cars in three market segments with three different price points. First, it bodes well for the future of the 86 if they're still willing to let the Supra sell 86s. And even though right now they only have two brothers out there on the circuit, it's also an encouraging sign that the original marketing strategy Tada talked about is not dead, so maybe a smaller $20K sports car is still a possibility as a third brother.

[soundman98]

I have my doubts that a 3rd version will be much cheaper. The 86 already gets hounded for having a low end interior. Personally, I don't get what all the fuss is about, as my brz interior is one of the nicest places I've driven from.

[HachiRokuX]

Originally Posted by soundman98

I have my doubts that a 3rd version will be much cheaper. The 86 already gets hounded for having a low end interior. Personally, I don't get what all the fuss is about, as my brz interior is one of the nicest places I've driven from.

The S-FR concept had an even simpler interior than the BRZ/FRS in concept form, didn’t even have navigation—it kinda looked like a modern s2000 interior imo, no distractions. As long as Toyota kept a potential “third brother” simple and clean, I don’t think they would get too many complaints, especially in the sub $20k range.

Edit: but yeah if they only made a third sports car a bit cheaper than an 86 and made the interior super cheap, it would cause issues.


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[Adam_L]

Originally Posted by steel86gt

But unlike the newest generation of GTR and NSX, it is really remarkable that Toyota priced their sports car at the same price they charged for the MKIV Supra turbo back in 1998! So factoring in the new automotive tech available on this latest Supra and with its performance and the revelation of the recent dyno numbers I think your argument of charging too much for this latest creation doesnt stand!

Fundamentally , the new Supra is about 1/2 a Toyota ( exterior styling , and chassis mainly) , and about 1/2 BMW ( engine , tranny, interior styling / electronics). It's also made in Austria (I'd suspect much/most of the parts are coming from Euro sources). THe MKIII and MKIV Supra will always be 100% Toyota / Japanese. Not to sugar coat anything, but that's the reality.

Supra will always be Toyota's top tier modern sports car. This way, the new Supra may appeal to the Toyota sports car fan, and possibly the BMW sports car fan. Maybe Toyota cleans up, and sells more then expected….maybe. Either way, Toyota is able to price the new Supra at a certain level, due to BMW helping with initially offsetting costs (cost of engine / tranny and electronics. I'm sure Toyota has an agreement with BMW, so that BMW will get paid, paid for their part of the project / production. This was all planned out, years ago. As a consumer, you either buy into it or you don't.

We'll see what prices are at in July-Aug into Fall time , but at this point in time it's all speculation as to what prices will be the first year. I can think of a lot of different ways to spend $55-65k , not just on certain cars , but on other things in life.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by soundman98

I have my doubts that a 3rd version will be much cheaper. The 86 already gets hounded for having a low end interior. Personally, I don't get what all the fuss is about, as my brz interior is one of the nicest places I've driven from.

Tada mentioned in some interview that its unlikely they'll be able to get a third brother at a lower price point than the 86.

IF the 86 covers the low end (and if they cant really get anything cheaper than the 86), the Supra covers the high end (so to speak), then a "different" approach is likely the way to go with that, which imo makes the MR2 the most likely car to be resurrected. a mid engine 2 seat roadster/coupe at its own price point could find a niche, as long as they don't price it outrageously. A lotus elise lite for the masses (much like how a 2ZZ-GE swapped MR2 spyder was touted as)

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by extrashaky

One really encouraging sign in these reviews is that they all take place at corporate press events that include both the Supra and the 86 rather than simply spotlighting the Supra and relegating the 86 to noise in the background. They're not just marketing the Supra. They're marketing the sports car lineup. Not all manufacturers would do that for fear of taking the spotlight off the main attraction.

Yeah definitely encouraging. It's almost like Tada is showing off his two kids. Hopefully a sign Toyota will carry the 86 into the future.

Speaking of taking some of the Supra's spotlight though, did you see this review of the Supra vs. 86? Some sibling rivalry going on here...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJQo0tZ5Jmg[/ame]

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

Tada mentioned in some interview that its unlikely they'll be able to get a third brother at a lower price point than the 86.

IF the 86 covers the low end (and if they cant really get anything cheaper than the 86), the Supra covers the high end (so to speak), then a "different" approach is likely the way to go with that, which imo makes the MR2 the most likely car to be resurrected. a mid engine 2 seat roadster/coupe at its own price point could find a niche, as long as they don't price it outrageously. A lotus elise lite for the masses (much like how a 2ZZ-GE swapped MR2 spyder was touted as)

He has also been quoted many times as using phrases such as "we would like to have..." or "it would be nice if we could..." when speaking of a three car line up. These same types of quotes have gone all the way up to the CEO. They have never once said "we WILL make a three model line up". Unfortunately "like to have" does not equal a plan to have.