09-09-2012, 12:52 PM | #29 |
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^^I like this. It is well-reasoned.
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09-09-2012, 12:56 PM | #30 |
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As I may have said before, the guy who created the S2000 was asked what owners should do to protect the life and function of the car. Notably, he said to change the gearbox oil regularly and to do it sooner than the stated service intervals. I never heard any OEM say things like this before and it was good to learn.
Honda MT fluid was the best for that car. Other products may have been equal to it, but none were superior. I have no idea if Scion OEM MT fluid is the best or not, but it makes sense, given the info that we have so far. |
09-09-2012, 01:58 PM | #31 | |
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eneos sustina, top choice motul eco I also like total and agip oils in addition to factory toyota and subi 'sm' rated oils these contain the most zddp and moly for our boxxers I pass on the 'sn' track day switch to german made castrol 0w-30 I will be refilling my tranny with pentosin, wife and I both enjoy the less notchy 2nd gear. most of your apprehensions are from not comparing analyzing or matching up oil composition, chemistries and properties. set it up how YOU want, fill it with what runs best for YOU and regarding the poster with the advise dispensed for bearing load come back and tell us how a 75w80 is going to affect bearing life, over a 75w85, what do you know about the HTHS differences between the OE oil that the Pentosin doesnt meet? It exceeds every ASTM rating you can look for when it comes to bearing load. do your homework!! you can doubt me, but dont spread fear for something that could benefit others just cause your afraid to try it or not knowledgeable enough to feel confident doing what I'm recommending obviously anyone swapping fluids does so at their own risk as does anyone swapping brakes, exhaust, etc etc etc By your logic, all of us with porsches who swear by swepco over the 'recommended' oil are also taking a risk. by that model, any deviation from factory spec is a risk, this is actually NOT the case. Last edited by gmookher; 09-09-2012 at 02:10 PM. |
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09-09-2012, 03:07 PM | #32 |
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What is your opinion of using GC for day to day use? I know GC is a thick 30...almost a thin 40 and such wonder about day to day use when oil may not get as hot.
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09-09-2012, 03:13 PM | #33 | |
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You keeping repeating your mantra of "do your homework" yet your only homework for Pentosin is "it feels good". You have no data to support your recommendation after that and I scoured the internet for people running Pentosin in Aisin boxes and found essentially nothing. My counter was not to say Pentosin shouldn't be used, my argument is that running a fluid that isn't tested and has little to no history with Aisin boxes should receive a bit more scrutiny than a 2nd-gear-cold-shift "feels better". Feels better doesn't always = is better. Other factors can be at play. So once again, don't ignore the bigger picture. It is fair to say that just because the fluid improves 2nd gear when cold it doesn't necessarily mean it will increase the life the bearings or the shift forks or the engagement teeth on the shift collars. All you have to offer for your recommendation is that: "just try it yourself and do your own research". Alternatively, Swepco has been run in LOTS of Porsches and there's mountains of data and experience with this fluid in those boxes both in street and racing applications. Just as there's lots of data and experience with GM/Pennzoil/Honda MTL/MT90/10w-30 in both Honda and Aisin boxes. There's manual transmissions out there that work really well with ATF in them... would you recommend people try that and "come to their own conclusions?" No you wouldn't, neither would I. You can go on and on about HTHS, Sheer, bearing load etc but a real world example is this: MT90 and Amsoil Synchromesh out-perform Honda MTF and any off the shelf DINO 10w-30 yet they don't work very well with the synchros in the S2k tranny and other Honda trannies (too slippery, high RPM crunch from Synchro not slowing the gear). Just as GL-4/5 gear oils (with superior bearing load ratings and HTHS #'s) don't properly lubricate the various bearings in various FWD Honda transmissions because they don't flow adequately throughout the various passageways and lead to bearing failure. |
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09-09-2012, 03:40 PM | #34 |
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Great debate. I am also a skeptic at heart, but only because I want something to be proven. One guy saying "Some German cars use it, it MUST be good" doesn't convince me. Getrags are great, but they are a different transmission from a different company. I do my homework, but rice classic makes a great point that there's little data available on Pentosin in Aisin boxes, THIS Aisin box to be specific. An Aisin transmission designation, such as the AZ6, doesn't mean that ANY part is the same between a Toyota AZ6 (or "TL70") and a Honda AZ6. They may have fundamental similarities, but that's it.
We need some more guinea pigs to join gmhooker and BMWDavid and use the Pentosin. Do a bunch of daily driving or hard track days and send it in for analysis. |
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09-09-2012, 03:50 PM | #35 | |
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http://kaizenfactor.wordpress.com/20...n-or-is-scion/ what we NEED is a VIRGIN oil sample out of the tranny of a new 6MT since no one can get their paws on subie or toy gl3 mtf for this car to date just open the fill hole, stick a syringe in there grab a few cc's and send it in. if bmwdavid sends his in, I'll ante up and pay the cost for analysis so we can figure out WHAT it is 1st, even once I know its not going back in my car..the difference, rather the improvement is way too dramatic then, after 10,000 miles lets do a UOA and see what blackstone says. if they flow the same, and have the same minimum essential EP and FM then its not as unorthodox as one may think to put german oil in a jap car I do the intelligent BITOG thing and talk 100°C cSt. Not SAE grades. I got $27,900 suggesting I'm pretty confident in my findings before I went pouring german into japan.. as for deviating from 0w-20 for dd duty, nope. anytime you start and stop alot, you want flow. thats your 40 cST When youre hanging out at redline you want HTHS, and watch the 100cST the we will do this again at 40k miles one of us will have had a notchy tranny for 40k miles, the other, miles of smiles. the metal content will tell whose tranny is wearing faster, which fluid is not doing its job - - simple. after all its a manual tranny derived off a tranny used in a honda s2000 many years ago, and mazdas, folks have been experimenting with GM and Motorcraft fluids for a while in thos ecar with alleged improved results. Go look at what mother company owns ford, and you will see across the pond some ford or motor craft fluid bottles have ravenol, addinol, or pentosin in side. The new Focus ST has all german spec'd fluid FYI, its a euro model that ships global, there is no more North American spec, so many of the fluids have become global formulations I get there is variation in the BRZ/FRS tranny from the aisin one used in s2000, and I get there are reasons why what i am doing is going out on a limb. Its up for debate if Pentosin has been used in Aisin trannys, based on s2000 and mazda boards, they been using non jap fluid for years, and when I see names like GM syncromesh and Motorcraft, there formulations arent top secret. if its not a pento branded goop, its likely a copy of many of the fluid tech pioneered to meet EU standards have now become widely used for engineering development worldwide and as such, these formulations are becoming more ubiquitous under a variety of names. its probably JUST coincidence that honda uses a MTF2 and pentosin uses a MTF2 and they are both 75w-80s...same color, etc etc its Not like someone went and gave us some rocket space age tranny for $27k. automotive technology just doesnt move THAT fast. There is no voodoo in one brand over another. all factory fluids are repack'd formulas, and I can generally find a fluid that either meets, or EXCEEDs OE if you match them up. What i am doing is as risky as running redline, and lots of you put that crap in your boxes...lets see what happens personally, I'm waiting to see what bmwdavids results are This is interesting http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1643610 and http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2617262 9 Anyone who knows anything about m3 transmissions knows they also use similar cone type synchros as the aisin in our cars, my bet is the toyota stuff is a 6 or 7 cST. Pentosin is right there. I hit redline a dozen times on the way to breakfast- we took the long way) and so did wifey took turns driving..so our cars are driven pretty hard. We bought it for toy and track use, so I need it to shift, reliably. Last edited by gmookher; 09-10-2012 at 12:58 AM. |
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09-09-2012, 04:01 PM | #36 |
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"Competitive" debates like this are really handy for learning the nitty gritty about trans fluid. This is purely anecdotal, but I am a huge fan of Redline MT90, as it alleviated all of the 2nd gear grinding my Mazda's Aisin G35M-R had. OEM Mazda, and Honda MTF both crapped out when the box got too hot and resulted in grinding or locked gears even when double clutching and being gentle with it. Did approx. 20k each miles on both the Mazda, and Honda oils before switching to MT90, 37k, 20+ autocrosses, two track days (@100+*F) later and my shifts are still nice and smooth.
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09-09-2012, 04:26 PM | #37 |
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My AP1 S2000 is the same way, fluids may smooth it out but if it's only notchy until it warms up in 5 miles or so I'd simply deal with it until more research is done.
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09-09-2012, 05:07 PM | #38 |
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I also agree with this. My gearbox has been always been notchy when cold since day 1. Unfortunately, it seems part of the territory of buying an inexpensive car. The only exception I have seen to this has been in Honda/Acura MTs which are basically idiot-proof. In the past few years I have gotten into the habit of double clutching the first few shifts of the day, and that coupled with the Redline MT90 has resulted in no issues.
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09-09-2012, 05:22 PM | #39 |
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Only because I don't know jack about oils compared to you guys, can we get a recommendation from each of you debating this?
I just went turbo, about 300whp, and I am damned sure that I'll need to change the tranny/diff/motor oil and I'd like to get a recommendation from someone. I'd like to get as much longevity out of my parts as possible. I'm pretty sure the stock oils weren't rated for boost so let's hear it guys. Thanks
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09-09-2012, 11:35 PM | #40 |
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Ahhhhh... I always come to this forum wanting to know something simple like, "what tranny fluid should I use?" And I always find some raging debate. Oh well..
I understand people being weary of trying something new, but I am not sure I see a big risk here. The pentosin fluid suggested in this thread seems to be close enough to the fluid the manual asks for that I can't imagine it being unsafe. |
09-10-2012, 12:02 AM | #41 | |
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Quote:
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09-10-2012, 12:06 AM | #42 |
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I am curious as well... but how do we find out? Where does concrete information come from regarding these issues? Seems like all we can do is look at the specs and make the most informed decision possible.
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