2020 Toyota GR Supra Revealed!

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

I'm not disregarding anything. The car is beautiful, and it LOOKS like a Supra. But no manual and no Toyota power plant completely goes against the iconic Supra formula. Now, I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt with the BMW engine, as I can understand from a logical perspective, that cost savings is what gives us cars like the 86 and Supra and partnerships are a great way to divide up the costs. That being said, the Supra is STILL an icon of performance and the primary market that "fanboys" about a Supra is the car enthusiast market of people driving manuals, just like our 86.

I think no manual, and the high price point are what causes the Supra to be a flop. If the car was offered in a manual and a starting point closer to $40k, this car would be an incredible success, despite the controversial BMW engine. I was going to get one if those two points were met and they weren't. It's a gorgeous car, and it'll probably be respectable in its OWN right, BUT, it's not a Supra and is not deserving of the name Supra other than looks, and looks alone does not qualify in my mind and in the minds of many.

See now, I don't know about this statement entirely. The Supra is an icon because of tuner culture, not because of the stock highest trim Supra, or manual gearbox car enthusiast wet dream. All I ever hear about Supra's is stuff like "oh shit, look it's a 1000hp Supra" or "Supra's are so fast" or "something unintelligible, insert Paul Walker Supra" or "2jz this, 2jz that, 2 Jay-z".

I think the Supra fanbois will be fine with an Auto only option. So to say the primary market for the Supra are manual drivers, is something I cannot agree with.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Taxes and extras will apply in the US as well so nobody is getting it for that price.

I cry. I just need a sweet expensive car to pick up all the hunnies, this is my dream in life.

I cross my fingers waiting for that 60k baby NSX.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

I cry. I just need a sweet expensive car to pick up all the hunnies, this is my dream in life.

I cross my fingers waiting for that 60k baby NSX.

[Borchert97]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

See now, I don't know about this statement entirely. The Supra is an icon because of tuner culture, not because of the stock highest trim Supra, or manual gearbox car enthusiast wet dream. All I ever hear about Supra's is stuff like "oh shit, look it's a 1000hp Supra" or "Supra's are so fast" or "something unintelligible, insert Paul Walker Supra" or "2jz this, 2jz that, 2 Jay-z".

I think the Supra fanbois will be fine with an Auto only option. So to say the primary market for the Supra are manual drivers, is something I cannot agree with.

Tuner culture overlaps almost entirely with the car enthusiast crowd, and sure they want a manual, did you not see the 24-speed shifts of Fast & Furious?

Sure we all love to joke about floor pans flying off because the manifold is in danger, and 2JZ no shit, and you owe me a 10 second car, yada-yada.

But the point is, people who would want to buy a Supra would probably want it to be more affordable and probably want it to be offered in a manual. I fit this description. I could've justified a mid-300hp Supra for $40k, but for $50k I would just take the step up to a GT350 Mustang. The Supra would've replaced my 86, but the massive price gap between the two means the 86 stays until I could afford and would want to buy a high-end Mustang.

The Supra has a crowd it appeals to, and they missed that crowd. You may not realize it, but the 86 hits that crowd almost perfectly, it's priced very cheap, gives modest performance, sits on a very balanced platform that can be used to drift or track, responds extremely well to mods and can be engine swapped to almost anything from a 2JZ to a Ferrari V12, but even stock it is a very pleasing car to drive in manual form. Want to know what that sounds like? A MKIV Supra. Not this Supra. The 86 is honestly more of a Supra in spirit and design philosophy than this Supra is.

Maybe, just maybe, for 2021 or 2022 Toyota will see the criticisms, add a trim level with a manual, maybe lower the price somewhere around $45k, meet us in the middle, and then I'd consider getting one. As I've said like four times already, this car is absolutely beautiful. If that was the exterior of say, a 2nd gen 86, I'd have ordered one the day orders were opened up, but at this point in time I cannot justify the cost of the Supra or the lack of a manual.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

Tuner culture overlaps almost entirely with the car enthusiast crowd, and sure they want a manual, did you not see the 24-speed shifts of Fast & Furious?

Sure we all love to joke about floor pans flying off because the manifold is in danger, and 2JZ no shit, and you owe me a 10 second car, yada-yada.

But the point is, people who would want to buy a Supra would probably want it to be more affordable and probably want it to be offered in a manual. I fit this description. I could've justified a mid-300hp Supra for $40k, but for $50k I would just take the step up to a GT350 Mustang. The Supra would've replaced my 86, but the massive price gap between the two means the 86 stays until I could afford and would want to buy a high-end Mustang.

The Supra has a crowd it appeals to, and they missed that crowd. You may not realize it, but the 86 hits that crowd almost perfectly, it's priced very cheap, gives modest performance, sits on a very balanced platform that can be used to drift or track, responds extremely well to mods and can be engine swapped to almost anything from a 2JZ to a Ferrari V12, but even stock it is a very pleasing car to drive in manual form. Want to know what that sounds like? A MKIV Supra. Not this Supra. The 86 is honestly more of a Supra in spirit and design philosophy than this Supra is.

Maybe, just maybe, for 2021 or 2022 Toyota will see the criticisms, add a trim level with a manual, maybe lower the price somewhere around $45k, meet us in the middle, and then I'd consider getting one. As I've said like four times already, this car is absolutely beautiful. If that was the exterior of say, a 2nd gen 86, I'd have ordered one the day orders were opened up, but at this point in time I cannot justify the cost of the Supra or the lack of a manual.

About 80% of this statement consists of so much bullshit that my grass is greening up.
You are applying your own personal views and saying that they represent "most".
There are many enthusiasts that have nothing to do with tuning culture.
There are plenty of enthusiasts that actually like ATs.
The price is right where it should be but if it is too much for you then to bad. Doesn't make it too much money.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

At the crowded price point of $50k, you can buy a new base Corvette Stingray, have more power, less weight, and a lower car with a removable targa top. Or you can buy a GT350, have 200hp more than the Supra and almost 100 more than the Corvette, and have a total track monstrosity.

You make it sound like buying a car is a rational decision.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

Tuner culture overlaps almost entirely with the car enthusiast crowd, and sure they want a manual, did you not see the 24-speed shifts of Fast & Furious?

Sure we all love to joke about floor pans flying off because the manifold is in danger, and 2JZ no shit, and you owe me a 10 second car, yada-yada.

But the point is, people who would want to buy a Supra would probably want it to be more affordable and probably want it to be offered in a manual. I fit this description. I could've justified a mid-300hp Supra for $40k, but for $50k I would just take the step up to a GT350 Mustang. The Supra would've replaced my 86, but the massive price gap between the two means the 86 stays until I could afford and would want to buy a high-end Mustang.

The Supra has a crowd it appeals to, and they missed that crowd. You may not realize it, but the 86 hits that crowd almost perfectly, it's priced very cheap, gives modest performance, sits on a very balanced platform that can be used to drift or track, responds extremely well to mods and can be engine swapped to almost anything from a 2JZ to a Ferrari V12, but even stock it is a very pleasing car to drive in manual form. Want to know what that sounds like? A MKIV Supra. Not this Supra. The 86 is honestly more of a Supra in spirit and design philosophy than this Supra is.

Maybe, just maybe, for 2021 or 2022 Toyota will see the criticisms, add a trim level with a manual, maybe lower the price somewhere around $45k, meet us in the middle, and then I'd consider getting one. As I've said like four times already, this car is absolutely beautiful. If that was the exterior of say, a 2nd gen 86, I'd have ordered one the day orders were opened up, but at this point in time I cannot justify the cost of the Supra or the lack of a manual.

Believe me, I am behind you in wanting a cheaper, manual Supra. I understand how passionate you are, but I do not think they once thought to aim the Supra at the same or even similar market that the 86 appeals to. How it looks to me is Toyota wanted to age the Supra to the people who originally bought it back in the 90's, or to put it another way, just capture an older/more mature crowd.

For 2021 or 2022.. I don't really care at all about the Supra or the future of it; I like what you said about how the 86 is more of a Supra than this new Supra, so maybe in 2021+ what we should be wanting more is another 86 and not a better Supra.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Captain Snooze

You make it sound like buying a car is a rational decision.

It was for me. How many cool per dollars could I afford. I could afford 86 of them.

Can do Ken Block in winter?¿ Yes.

Logic is sound, car is purrfect. Ration purchase commence.

[Borchert97]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

About 80% of this statement consists of so much bullshit that my grass is greening up.
You are applying your own personal views and saying that they represent "most".
There are many enthusiasts that have nothing to do with tuning culture.
There are plenty of enthusiasts that actually like ATs.
The price is right where it should be but if it is too much for you then to bad. Doesn't make it too much money.

About 80% of everything you say on here consists of bullshit. You're one of the more toxic individuals on here and it's not hard to realize that.

And you're just flat out wrong in most of what you're saying. Car enthusiasts generally modify their cars. That's tuner culture. Car enthusiasts generally support the inclusion of a manual option, whether they personally want an automatic or manual. The price is not where it should be. For $35k you can buy a brand new STI with just as much power as that Supra, and get a manual. It's not too much for me, if I REALLY wanted a $50k car I could get one, I'm just saying that the Supra loses my buy BECAUSE there are so many better options in that price range. What Toyota doesn't realize is that there's two markets for the Supra, the older market of people who bought the earlier generations of Supras, and the younger market of people who were kids or teens when Fast & Furious came out, and Toyota is doing themselves no favors in capturing that crowd with the Supra.

I don't even like Subaru, but look at just the WRX as a car model. The price disparity from the cheapest base model and the most expensive special edition is almost $30k. That's a car that can appeal to many audiences. The Supra ranges from $50k-$55k, they could've easily made a base model with a manual for $40k, and the fancy special edition paddle shift model for $55k.

The whole "but inflation" argument about the MSRP of the previous generation of Supra is irrelevant, what we can accurately compare are similar cars, and similar cars are the STI and EcoBoost Mustang, which can both be had for $15k cheaper.

[squall leonhart]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Pedestrian. Crash. Standards.

Yeah, nice how they make good car design nearly impossible...yet the bigger problem is the overabundance of SUVs and trucks (personally I'd rather get hit by say an AE86 or other 80's car than the behemoth SUVs trolling around) driven by completely distracted drivers (so lets keep putting more smart phone/connectivity crap in vehicles), and people just being otherwise incompetent and self-absorbed behind the wheel. For that matter I don't think (most) automatic transmissions and driving "aids" help either...but oh well...

As for the Supra...some angles I think it looks good, even really good. Some it looks too BMW. I'm sure in person it probably looks pretty great. The interior has issues. Mainly it only has 2 pedals, and the stupid tablet thing...sigh.

My opinion doesn't much matter, as I had to wait 5 years from release to be able to feel reasonably good about the cost of an FR-S, so I am decidedly not the target income demographic.

I do hope it sells well...I think. I'd rather Toyota made their own sports cars like they used to. But I also don't want them to give up on the market entirely.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

About 80% of everything you say on here consists of bullshit. You're one of the more toxic individuals on here and it's not hard to realize that.

And you're just flat out wrong in most of what you're saying. Car enthusiasts generally modify their cars. That's tuner culture. Car enthusiasts generally support the inclusion of a manual option, whether they personally want an automatic or manual. The price is not where it should be. For $35k you can buy a brand new STI with just as much power as that Supra, and get a manual. It's not too much for me, if I REALLY wanted a $50k car I could get one, I'm just saying that the Supra loses my buy BECAUSE there are so many better options in that price range. What Toyota doesn't realize is that there's two markets for the Supra, the older market of people who bought the earlier generations of Supras, and the younger market of people who were kids or teens when Fast & Furious came out, and Toyota is doing themselves no favors in capturing that crowd with the Supra.

I don't even like Subaru, but look at just the WRX as a car model. The price disparity from the cheapest base model and the most expensive special edition is almost $30k. That's a car that can appeal to many audiences. The Supra ranges from $50k-$55k, they could've easily made a base model with a manual for $40k, and the fancy special edition paddle shift model for $55k.

The whole "but inflation" argument about the MSRP of the previous generation of Supra is irrelevant, what we can accurately compare are similar cars, and similar cars are the STI and EcoBoost Mustang, which can both be had for $15k cheaper.

So you insist that to be an enthusiast you need to modify cars eh. Very narrow minded view and excludes the majority of enthusiasts in the car world. Your whole definition revolves around your likes and dislikes and that is a nice fantasy but you are out to lunch.
I am so glad that you know so much to state what they can "easily" make.
Still stuck on the numbers game are you? Comparing this car to a WRX or Ecoboost Mustang is just silly. You will fit in nicely with the 'Stang crowd when you have saved up enough to join them.

[Jordanwolf]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

About 80% of this statement consists of so much bullshit that my grass is greening up.
You are applying your own personal views and saying that they represent "most".
There are many enthusiasts that have nothing to do with tuning culture.
There are plenty of enthusiasts that actually like ATs.
The price is right where it should be but if it is too much for you then to bad. Doesn't make it too much money.

You're doing that thing with the periods again, your damn passive aggressive periods.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Jordanwolf

You're doing that thing with the periods again, your damn passive aggressive periods.

Oh screw off with the periods. They end a sentence and that is all they mean. These are not texts so I don't give a flying fuck if they mean something else to some group of people that can barely communicate in the first place.

[Captain Snooze]

Originally Posted by Borchert97

About 80% of everything you say on here consists of bullshit. You're one of the more toxic individuals on here and it's not hard to realize that [1].

And you're just flat out wrong in most of what you're saying. Car enthusiasts generally modify their cars [2]. That's tuner culture. Car enthusiasts generally support the inclusion of a manual option [3], whether they personally want an automatic or manual. The price is not where it should be [4]. For $35k you can buy a brand new STI with just as much power as that Supra, and get a manual. It's not too much for me, if I REALLY wanted a $50k car I could get one, I'm just saying that the Supra loses my buy BECAUSE there are so many better options in that price range. What Toyota doesn't realize is that there's two markets for the Supra [5], the older market of people who bought the earlier generations of Supras, and the younger market of people who were kids or teens when Fast & Furious came out, and Toyota is doing themselves no favors in capturing that crowd with the Supra.

I don't even like Subaru, but look at just the WRX as a car model. The price disparity from the cheapest base model and the most expensive special edition is almost $30k. That's a car that can appeal to many audiences. The Supra ranges from $50k-$55k, they could've easily made a base model with a manual for $40k, and the fancy special edition paddle shift model for $55k.

The whole "but inflation" argument about the MSRP of the previous generation of Supra is irrelevant, what we can accurately compare are similar cars, and similar cars are the STI and EcoBoost Mustang, which can both be had for $15k cheaper.

1/ I disagree with your assessment (because internet). I think most of what Tcoat says (when he is being serious) is relevant in not sometimes a little inflammatory.
2/ Define enthusiast. Where do you get your data from? Is it a circular definition? Only enthusiasts modify their cars? Can one be an enthusiast if one doesn't modify their car?
3/ The market seems to disagree with you. The best example that comes to mind is Porsche. Where both manual and auto options exist for the same model something like 90% of sales are for the auto option. Go figure.
4/ Should be? It is where the marketing department and accountants want it.
5/ That is a mighty presumptuous statement to make. You are suggesting one of the world's biggest companies doesn't know their own history and the market they are aiming for. That they are just releasing a car not knowing who they think is going to buy it?