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FR-S / BRZ vs.... Area to discuss the FR-S/BRZ against its competitors [NO STREET RACING]


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Old 02-24-2012, 03:52 PM   #71
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I can't deal with you anymore. You're a judgemental extremist that refuses to see the "compromise" in anything outside your own ideals.
I'm all about compromise. *Everything* is a compromise and I recognise that.

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You pretend as though there isn't anything practical out there past 3000lb's now THAT's "LUDICROUS".
Not sure what you're saying here, so no comment.

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What about lightening an average weight car is Ludicrous?
For a given price point, if you want a fast dedicated track car, it's LUDICROUS to start with a heavy car. You will need more power, more brakes, more structural stiffness, etc. to achieve the same speed vs. a lighter-weight car. AND you'll spend a LOT more money to run it.

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A car doesn't NEED to be 2400lbs to perform superbly
No, but as weight goes up, cost to achieve a speedy lap time also goes up, *and* you lose the immediacy of a smaller/lighterweight car.

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and frankly many people ENJOY high horsepower mid-weight vehicles.
Count me in, I certainly do!

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And truthfully I don't consider something a "pig" or overweight until it reaches higher than 3800lbs,
Depends on the application, of course. For me, that number would be closer to 3200 for a real-world daily driven sports car.

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and I honestly could give less of a f*** whether or not YOU agree with that statement. Adding you to the ignore list now, your mentality and narrowminded view of the automotive world angers me.
GOOD RIDDANCE!
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:59 PM   #72
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i completely disagree with everything TheJuggernaut said.....j/k...it was great post.

The same ideas can be applied to a variety of cars and not just those BMWs, and still be true.

Enthusiasts, admirer, tuner, can all mean the same thing..and at the same time mean completely different things.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:40 PM   #73
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Holy crap, thanks for that post, Juggernaut! I had pretty much been convinced that NO one in these forums would even acknowledge that I might just have a point!

Here's to the success of the FR-S/BRZ, and to it lighting a fire under the arses of BMW, Nissan, Porsche, etc.
ZDan, your posts are better worded then what I can come up with. I've expressed my opinions about vehicular mass about 6 months ago on a GC thread, and of course, got the same response. So I will let them believe what they want to believe... because no side is without a point or two. This continues on to the transmissions, engines. I'm sure I've had a friendly battle with someone on just about everything that I prefer.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:04 PM   #74
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I always go with the newer technology when in doubt.
Therefore, FRS> e46 M3. To me, e46 M3 > e36 M3.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:06 PM   #75
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I prefer drumsticks than wings n tighs...
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:27 PM   #76
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I like breasts better.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:29 PM   #77
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I like breasts better.
Well I like breastasisses better!
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:16 PM   #78
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Like all the other BMW-apologist arguments, this one makes 3200, 3600, 4000+ lb vehicles from an "enthusiast" manufacturer seem not only inevitable but *laudable*.

A minivan is a much more practical 4-5 passenger vehicle than anything BMW makes. Not a great argument for BMW to abandon the 1- and 3-series to make minivans, IMO...

This argument is LUDICROUS. As if once you start lightening a platform its original weight was irrelevant? If you want a lightweight track car, starting with an overweight pig is idiotic.

Utter B.S. Same effort in lightweighting to get an E46 below 3000 lb would have an E30 below 2400 lb.
That's entirely untrue. If you did the same exact thing to both cars, you'd lose less weight in the E30 because there's less weight to lose.

E46 front seats weigh 62lbs each. E30 front seats weigh 43. And this trend continues

E46s have more sound deadening. E46s have front impact, door, and curtain airbags. E30s have front impact. How many speakers does an E30 have? I'm sure there are fewer speakers and that they weigh less.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:49 PM   #79
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so by the time you get a stock E46 down into E30 land, you're pretty much driving a metal bucket

this is where the apeal in the FRS comes from, you get a light car AND creature comforts, most importantly...... rear seats!

ta da
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:02 PM   #80
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That's entirely untrue. If you did the same exact thing to both cars, you'd lose less weight in the E30 because there's less weight to lose.

E46 front seats weigh 62lbs each. E30 front seats weigh 43. And this trend continues

E46s have more sound deadening. E46s have front impact, door, and curtain airbags. E30s have front impact. How many speakers does an E30 have? I'm sure there are fewer speakers and that they weigh less.
It is completely true. Getting a stripped E30 under 2400 lbs is trivial, 2200 isn't terribly hard, especially with the S14 or M42. To get an E36 that light, you have to replace most of the glass and sheet metal with plastic. An E46, I dunno, cut it in half... The logic is similar to saying that a hippo on a diet will weigh the same as a dog on one because the hippo has more to lose. The E46 is a large, heavy car. Not an E30 with extra sound deadening and creature comforts. In fact, I'd bet it's about the same size as the E28, the 80's 5 series.

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so by the time you get a stock E46 down into E30 land, you're pretty much driving a metal bucket

this is where the apeal in the FRS comes from, you get a light car AND creature comforts, most importantly...... rear seats!

ta da
Bingo!
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:10 AM   #81
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I honestly think some of these threads was made up for no reason other than price. Next it will be FR-S vs C5 Z06 or some other off the wall comparisons involving apples and broccoli.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:09 AM   #82
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It is completely true. Getting a stripped E30 under 2400 lbs is trivial, 2200 isn't terribly hard, especially with the S14 or M42. To get an E36 that light, you have to replace most of the glass and sheet metal with plastic. An E46, I dunno, cut it in half... The logic is similar to saying that a hippo on a diet will weigh the same as a dog on one because the hippo has more to lose. The E46 is a large, heavy car. Not an E30 with extra sound deadening and creature comforts. In fact, I'd bet it's about the same size as the E28, the 80's 5 series.
Technically you COULD get an E46 down in the mid 2k's. Get rid of ALL the luxuries, 1 lightweight race seat, no sound deadening, no PS or AC, replace the glass with plexi, Acid bath the chassis (yeah going that far to prove a point, lol. Sure it's a lot of work but I'm just trying to prove it's possible), light weight battery, no spare, lightweight alloy rims, get rid of a few panels etc etc


So yeah essentially you would be riding around in a metal bucket with one seat, a roll cage, and a powertrain BUUUUUT it's a track car it's not supposed to be comfortable.

The real question is, WOULD you? Does it make sense? Not really when you can do it for cheaper with an E30 or E36 but there are crazy people with too much currency on hand that like to do unique things to cars for the sake of doing it. Had a dude at my college drop an RB26DETT in his Chevy S10. Why? Because there are only 2 other's like it in the country and he wanted to be the third.

So yeah this hippo could weigh as much as a dog... it's just a LOT of work.
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:38 AM   #83
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It is completely true. Getting a stripped E30 under 2400 lbs is trivial, 2200 isn't terribly hard, especially with the S14 or M42. To get an E36 that light, you have to replace most of the glass and sheet metal with plastic. An E46, I dunno, cut it in half... The logic is similar to saying that a hippo on a diet will weigh the same as a dog on one because the hippo has more to lose. The E46 is a large, heavy car. Not an E30 with extra sound deadening and creature comforts. In fact, I'd bet it's about the same size as the E28, the 80's 5 series.



Bingo!
Not quite the point I was making. He said that if you do the same things to an E46 to get under 3000lbs (400lb loss) you would get an E30 under 2400lbs (400lbs loss). My point is that, part for part, the weight shedding would not be linear because the things you remove from the E46 would be heavier.

If you wanted to get an E46 under 2400lbs, you'd be better off building a tube chassis and draping E46 looking fiberglass over it.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:13 AM   #84
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Not quite the point I was making. He said that if you do the same things to an E46 to get under 3000lbs (400lb loss) you would get an E30 under 2400lbs (400lbs loss). My point is that, part for part, the weight shedding would not be linear because the things you remove from the E46 would be heavier.

If you wanted to get an E46 under 2400lbs, you'd be better off building a tube chassis and draping E46 looking fiberglass over it.
I feel like this was inspired by a sport that promotes high speed extreme left turning.
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