Base Cayman vs BRZ

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

I think you may be missing my point. I’m not racing anything, no pink slips, no lap times nothing about this would be about speed or top speed anything.

Sure, this reply is fine. I was just responding to some previous reasoning like ...


"I cannot use my car to its full potential, so the longer gearing is just inferior and Porsche did it mainly to keep Cayman back from the 911. "


or
"the PDK in Cayman has shorter gearing from the MT, because they wanted to sell more PDKs."


or
"the 911 has shorter 1st and 2nd gear ratios again to give an advantage."
<- maybe 911 is more rear biased and can put more torque on the road?


I wasn't responding just to you, but I was a bit bored to make all the quotations.


Hope the best to your decision.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

Honda did 120 hp/L 20 years ago guess we’re going backwards.

Nah - Subaru/Toyota did an amazing job with this motor with their constraints. The F20C is a truly bespoke motor not used in anything else but the S2000 (as far as I know!), designed for that car. Below Vtec, it's not as torquey as the FA20 (though the higher gearing can level things) below the magical VTEC switch. It's a race motor made streetable. The FA20 is a street motor built as a shared design with some pretty significant cost constraints. The fact they pull 100hp/L out of that, along with other constraints (packaging, noise, emissions, etc) is pretty darned impressive in my book.

This car is no Cayman, no S2000. It's an economy sports car that punches way above it's price tag in fun factor.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by Lynxis

I've watched someone pull 4 wheels and tires and a jack out of their S2000 for swapping at the track. Top was down and 3 of the tires were in the passenger seat and strapped down. The last one and the jack were in the trunk. I've also seen someone with a Cayman had taken his passenger seat out to make space to stack his slicks.

It's not a comfortable situation and won't work if you are bringing a +1 like you can with a twin but it can be managed if you're by yourself.

Ok fine, you can accomplish a lot with some creative thinking/ingenuity. I'm sure with some bungee cords I could carry a load of 2x4's in my FR-S

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

The MT is alive and well in the rest of the world.

True, but in many ways the USA is still the torch bearer for wanting manual transmissions. The only reason BMW even offered a manual transmission option for the last 2 M5 generations was because Americans wanted it.

Originally Posted by bfrank1972

Nah - Subaru/Toyota did an amazing job with this motor with their constraints. The F20C is a truly bespoke motor not used in anything else but the S2000 (as far as I know!), designed for that car. Below Vtec, it's not as torquey as the FA20 (though the higher gearing can level things) below the magical VTEC switch. It's a race motor made streetable. The FA20 is a street motor built as a shared design with some pretty significant cost constraints. The fact they pull 100hp/L out of that, along with other constraints (packaging, noise, emissions, etc) is pretty darned impressive in my book.

While that's all true, the K20A engine is seen by many people to be superior to the F20/22C engines. And that engine was built for a considerably lower price bracket. For all intents and purposes it was built for the same market level as the FA20. And is a better engine despite being 10+ years older than the FA20. But that's another conversation...

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Sure, this reply is fine. I was just responding to some previous reasoning like ...


"I cannot use my car to its full potential, so the longer gearing is just inferior and Porsche did it mainly to keep Cayman back from the 911. "


or
"the PDK in Cayman has shorter gearing from the MT, because they wanted to sell more PDKs."


or
"the 911 has shorter 1st and 2nd gear ratios again to give an advantage."
<- maybe 911 is more rear biased and can put more torque on the road?

Of course the 911 has more rear weight bias, but you're nuts if you think the gear ratio change is because of that. Not sure why you're not believing us when we tell you it was done specifically to handicap the Cayman.

[bfrank1972]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

While that's all true, the K20A engine is seen by many people to be superior to the F20/22C engines. And that engine was built for a considerably lower price bracket. For all intents and purposes it was built for the same market level as the FA20. And is a better engine despite being 10+ years older than the FA20. But that's another conversation...

Well I suppose we could debate about this 'till the cows come home, but I'm not sure what we'd be debating. It's not like Honda has the only team of super smart engineers and Subaru has a bunch of dunces in lab coats. Most of it comes down to cost & constraints - i.e. packaging with a flat four may have some design constraints that impact power output vs something like a K20A, but the flat engine was chosen for other reasons. I'm sure if given the go ahead, Subaru engineers could produce something easily as good as the K20A or F20/22C, it's just not deemed as their target goal.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by funwheeldrive

The weight difference is closer to 150lbs when comparing the Cayman and BRZ with PP.

I don't think that small of a gap transforms the Cayman into a "heavy car".

You must've not seen the curb weights listed in magazines with barely any options. A Cayman's average weight is 3050-3100 lbs which is not a 200 or 150 lb difference.

[funwheeldrive]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

You must've not seen the curb weights listed in magazines with barely any options. A Cayman's average weight is 3050-3100 lbs which is not a 200 or 150 lb difference.

The weight I saw listed for a base manual 718 was 2987lbs.

[strmshadow84]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Of course the 911 has more rear weight bias, but you're nuts if you think the gear ratio change is because of that. Not sure why you're not believing us when we tell you it was done specifically to handicap the Cayman.

Actually the 991 and the 981 have the exact same pdk ratios, and I don't think there is much difference between the manuals. The true difference is the FD between the cars where the 911 is geared at 3.44 vs the 3.25 981, further cementing that Porsche handicaps the Cayman. Just like they do between their models S to GTS and so on with tuning.

Source:http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-a...o-anomaly.html

[PuslarBrrrz]

Originally Posted by Rai-zero

Honda did 120 hp/L 20 years ago guess we’re going backwards.

Emissions aren't quite the same as 20 years ago however which definitively plays a factor. Hell, Toyota did it themselves with the 2ZZ 18 years ago.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

Of course the 911 has more rear weight bias, but you're nuts if you think the gear ratio change is because of that. Not sure why you're not believing us when we tell you it was done specifically to handicap the Cayman.

Because my BRZ has from factory a 3.727 fd diff and not the 4.1 or the newer 4.3. So, I was questioning for a long time if it is worth to change it. I even asked one of the designers of our cars and the reply was the following:

"On your shorter final drive question, it will only drop the whole range of gears, so your top gear will be shorter, so the fuel consumption will decrease. It will only feel livelier but not in all gears since we are just dropping the shift points lower...but not increasing the power to the output. So it's a choice. I would leave it alone if I was you since it really doesn't make the car any faster in all places. Just in some places, and in other places, slower."

Then I started studying it with excel formulas and indeed he was right. If you tell me that they wanted to handicap the Cayman and they didn't provide the bigger engine or the more advanced suspension (if space was sufficient), then yes I agree. But not on the gears or final drive ratios ...

[nikitopo]

But who cares about the stronger 911's? For my tastes even the Cayman 2.7 is enough and has plenty of power. Who cares about breaking the next Nurburging lap record? The BRZ is also very nice if you want something more raw and not so much refined. If you modify it a bit, then it is also more than sporty.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Because my BRZ has from factory a 3.727 fd diff and not the 4.1 or the newer 4.3. So, I was questioning for a long time if it is worth to change it. I even asked one of the designers of our cars and the reply was the following:

"On your shorter final drive question, it will only drop the whole range of gears, so your top gear will be shorter, so the fuel consumption will decrease. It will only feel livelier but not in all gears since we are just dropping the shift points lower...but not increasing the power to the output. So it's a choice. I would leave it alone if I was you since it really doesn't make the car any faster in all places. Just in some places, and in other places, slower."

Then I started studying it with excel formulas and indeed he was right. If you tell me that they wanted to handicap the Cayman and they didn't provide the bigger engine or the more advanced suspension (if space was sufficient), then yes I agree. But not on the gears or final drive ratios ...

I don't even know what else to say. I went looking in another thread where I posted the gear ratios of the BRZ Cayman and 911 to reference it here, but you quoted that exact post of mine, so I'm just gonna stop.

[nikitopo]

The different gear ratio numbers are not that important if you don't understand the meaning and the effect of these numbers. Otherwise, you can start thinking whatever you want and build different theories.

Don't take it personal, but it is not bad to educate ourselves. We don't know everything and we are constantly learning. I had to ask about this topic too. It is not an easy one and many people think about it wrong.


Otherwise, next time you might not be so lucky like the previous total of your car ...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=33
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=28

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The different gear ratio numbers are not that important if you don't understand the meaning and the effect of these numbers. Otherwise, you can start thinking whatever you want and build different theories.

Don't take it personal, but it is not bad to educate ourselves. We don't know everything and we are constantly learning. I had to ask about this topic too. It is not an easy one and many people think about it wrong.


Otherwise, next time you might not be so lucky like the previous total of your car ...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=33
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=28

What does his prior accident even remotely have to do with this?