Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by ayau

You can always autox. It doesn't put nearly as much stress as track days. LMK if you need more info regarding the local MN autox sites. Just register online under a different car make/brand. Subaru will have no idea, and the local club won't care.

autocross is just as likely (if not more so) to cause the transient detonation issue as it requires a lot of fast on-off-on throttle input.

[ayau]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

autocross is just as likely (if not more so) to cause the transient detonation issue as it requires a lot of fast on-off-on throttle input.

The "TSB" said that it's caused by fast shifting followed by quick on/off throttle, not just on/off throttle by itself. You almost never have to shift past 2nd in autox.

[xjohnx]

Originally Posted by ayau

The "TSB" said that it's caused by fast shifting and quick on/off throttle, not just on/off throttle by itself. You almost never have to shift past 2nd in autox.

On-off-on throttle at high RPMs (even without shifting) will cause the issue as well. The TSB may not specifically outline it, but if you understand the underlying issue, that's what those tables are for.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by xjohnx

autocross is just as likely (if not more so) to cause the transient detonation issue as it requires a lot of fast on-off-on throttle input.

Getting on the freeway for some onramps in LA require you to some times do this or else you can get epic rearended and have your car totaled. Might as well decrease redline to 4.5k and say this is a commuter car with a sporty look.

[lazyluka]

Subaru NZ celebrated the launch of the first 12 BRZ's sold by allowing customers to drive a "STi" cosmetically modified BRZ on the track...

Here's what my understanding is with regards to Toyota or Subaru hosting track days:
Any day hosted by Subaru or Toyota, even if it labelled as a track day, or a competitive event can NOT be compared to any other event's. The reason being is that if Subaru or Toyota organize the event they have their own people there who can say that you weren't following instructions/weren't being safe, was pushing the car too hard etc which would void your warranty. That's not to say your warranty will be safe, but it may be a bit safer as the manufacturer invited you out.

Anyway, this post and many others who have said, that Subaru or Toyota organized such and such event in that country will not help the issue at hand. Both manufacturers care little what happens overseas and they care even less what TSB's and issues the other is having (from my experience).

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by CSG David

Getting on the freeway for some onramps in LA require you to some times do this or else you can get epic rearended and have your car totaled. Might as well decrease redline to 4.5k and say this is a commuter car with a sporty look.

David, I'm just curious. The specific wording of the TSB from Toyota South Africa mentions, and I quote:

The above operation occurs when the engine rpm is above 5200 rpm. = shifting up rapidly from 3rd to 4th, 4th to 5th, 5th to 6th from 7450 rpm (E.g. shifting from 3rd @ 7450rpm up to 4th finishing @ 5864 rpm)

It then includes a graph that highlights only shifts from 3->4, 4->5 & 5->6, not specifically stating but certainly alluding that shifts from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd are not an issue. From your experience, do you believe this problem occurs during rapid gear shifts within 0.6 secs and on-off-on WOT applications, regardless of which gear? I honestly don't know if the ECU accounts or adjusting the timing according to what gear you're in. Or were. But I think it is (or at least could be) a key distinction.

For the record, I'm still trying to get a straight answer from my service tech if the wording on the same TSB is correct and cars with post January 21st build dates no longer have this issue.

[ft_sjo]

Toyota GB have confirmed the VIN's in the South Africa doc are only for that region (or to be more accurate, not for the UK).

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

David, I'm just curious. The specific wording of the TSB from Toyota South Africa mentions, and I quote:

It then includes a graph that highlights only shifts from 3->4, 4->5 & 5->6, not specifically stating but certainly alluding that shifts from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd are not an issue. From your experience, do you believe this problem occurs during rapid gear shifts within 0.6 secs and on-off-on WOT applications, regardless of which gear? I honestly don't know if the ECU accounts or adjusting the timing according to what gear you're in. Or were. But I think it is (or at least could be) a key distinction.

For the record, I'm still trying to get a straight answer from my service tech if the wording on the same TSB is correct and cars with post January 21st build dates no longer have this issue.

It is RPM dependent, and can happen in any gear under rapid throttle modulation. Shifting gears is an example of high rpm throttle modulation; you go completely off throttle, and then completely back on, when accelerating at full throttle with redline shifts.

[Superhatch]

The most frustrating part is that eventually this type of failure will have to be TSB'ed by Toyota and Subaru which will in the long run prove you right. Unfortunately they won't go back and credit you for a new motor. We as a community will likely see justice, you as an individual owner likely wont.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by ft_sjo

Toyota GB have confirmed the VIN's in the South Africa doc are only for that region (or to be more accurate, not for the UK).

That's true. And combined with Toyota's silence from other regions, it makes this issue even more exasperating. However, the notice does indicate that vehicles built from January 21st 2013 and onwards will all have the updated software. And it does seem reasonable to believe that such an update would include all regions.

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by lazyluka

Subaru NZ celebrated the launch of the first 12 BRZ's sold by allowing customers to drive a "STi" cosmetically modified BRZ on the track...

Here's what my understanding is with regards to Toyota or Subaru hosting track days:
Any day hosted by Subaru or Toyota, even if it labelled as a track day, or a competitive event can NOT be compared to any other event's. The reason being is that if Subaru or Toyota organize the event they have their own people there who can say that you weren't following instructions/weren't being safe, was pushing the car too hard etc which would void your warranty. That's not to say your warranty will be safe, but it may be a bit safer as the manufacturer invited you out.

Anyway, this post and many others who have said, that Subaru or Toyota organized such and such event in that country will not help the issue at hand. Both manufacturers care little what happens overseas and they care even less what TSB's and issues the other is having (from my experience).

Subaru sent a cease and desist on the organizers of SubieFest which was actually sponsored by Subaru themselves. Pretty sure they don't have their business processes worked out that efficiently...

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by Superhatch

The most frustrating part is that eventually this type of failure will have to be TSB'ed by Toyota and Subaru which will in the long run prove you right. Unfortunately they won't go back and credit you for a new motor. We as a community will likely see justice, you as an individual owner likely wont.

Now if Toyota decided to step up and really back the community, they will be loved and hailed as king of the automotive world. Subaru did not care for their Impreza community, they will likely not care for the BRZ community.

[jjaisli]

From the date of the Toyota South Africa notice, it's been almost 5 months. I can understand that a global company of Toyota's size takes time to move and they will not jump to conclusions. Not to mention the additional complications of having an engine design split between two different companies. But my biggest worry is that the reason we have not yet seen a universal TSB for reflashing the ECU, is because there is something larger at work. Perhaps a more serious design flaw in the nylon gaskets or the size/shape/design of the injector itself. And while researching this, they've found that retarding the timing above 5200 rpm only delays the inevitable.

I don't want to start doom and gloom forecasts. But it's certainly a concern. I would just think if the TSB in South Africa came out in March, it wasn't something that they put together in 2 days. It's something that they knew about and were likely already working on months before. And if they haven't applied it yet, what are they waiting for?

[CSG David]

Originally Posted by jjaisli

From the date of the Toyota South Africa notice, it's been almost 5 months. I can understand that a global company of Toyota's size takes time to move and they will not jump to conclusions. Not to mention the additional complications of having an engine design split between two different companies. But my biggest worry is that the reason we have not yet seen a universal TSB for reflashing the ECU, is because there is something larger at work. Perhaps a more serious design flaw in the nylon gaskets or the size/shape/design of the injector itself. And while researching this, they've found that retarding the timing above 5200 rpm only delays the inevitable.

I don't want to start doom and gloom forecasts. But it's certainly a concern. I would just think if the TSB in South Africa came out in March, it wasn't something that they put together in 2 days. It's something that they knew about and were likely already working on months before. And if they haven't applied it yet, what are they waiting for?

I hear something like an ECU/software update in the US requires some extensive emissions testing, however, that should be relatively quick. The DI seal is the same part used on multiple engines and manufacturers...pretty sure this is a Toyota/Subaru issue and not the seal itself.