Has anyone had a warranty claim denied? Seized engine! Pics of teardown added 6/5

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

They have no TSB to follow or ECU calibration to prevent the seals from blowing again, the "proper channels" are a dead end. The dealers are in an impossible situation without corp. recognition of the issue. Basically there is no warranty for this issue in the USA, GB, Europe, Australia, or Japan just a temporary band aid if you are lucky. My dealer said he has replaced DI seals on 4 cars and two have come back again, he's very candid.

For now the best option is to void your warranty, get the best Subaru tuner in your area for the flash and replace the DI seals per Dezoris video.

Not a big deal I'm used to working on quirky old German cars, one thing I learned over the years is fix it right the first time.

Well good luck with that.. There is no reason why your car can't be running correctly like it should. If you want to blame this all on design.. Then by all means, tune it whatever way makes you happy..
Myself and the vast majority of others are enjoying the car as it comes from the factory without issue.. By design.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

Well good luck with that.. There is no reason why your car can't be running correctly like it should. If you want to blame this all on design.. Then by all means, tune it whatever way makes you happy..
Myself and the vast majority of others are enjoying the car as it comes from the factory without issue.. By design.

Does that mean you wouldn't mind volunteering your car to see if I can reproduce the problem?

[DylanFRS]

Originally Posted by regal

For now the best option is to void your warranty, get the best Subaru tuner in your area for the flash and replace the DI seals per Dezoris video.

Some of us have to adhere to rules for a specific racing class and can't do a tune to fix it...

[regal]

Originally Posted by DylanFRS

Some of us have to adhere to rules for a specific racing class and can't do a tune to fix it...

I know and I think you guys are put in a tough situation. Do you get a tune to preserve your engine and compete in a tougher class or just sit out the season waiting on Toyota? Tough situation to be in, maybe a letter requesting allowing the south African calibration would get approval? Luckily I don't race or track have beautiful appalachian foothills to play on safely.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Does that mean you wouldn't mind volunteering your car to see if I can reproduce the problem?

LOL.. you went twice already.. I think i'm quite capable of abusing my own car.. one of the reasons I was attracted to this car was to be able to flog it all day long without breaking too many laws or parts. and the cost factor makes it easier to drive it harder than my last few cars, Vettes and a M3. So i consider this to be a disposable car.. use it hard and get rid of it when something else comes along.. staying stock too.. maybe..

Thank you for your generous offer.. and I hope you get things worked out with yours. can't be fun..

[regal]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

. So i consider this to be a disposable car.. use it hard and get rid of it when something else comes along.. staying

..

That explains everything. Most Toyota buyers expect 200k+ miles so it explains your lack of concern. Appreciate the honesty.

[Mikem53]

Originally Posted by regal

That explains everything. Most Toyota buyers expect 200k+ miles so it explains your lack of concern. Appreciate the honesty.

It's a sports car! I don't expect it to last as long as a Camry.. Its not driven like one..
That explains your concern..

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Mikem53

It's a sports car! I don't expect it to last as long as a Camry.. Its not driven like one..

I fully expect my S2000 to last just as long as a camry, and I can assure you I drive my S2k far harder than the FRS/BRZs I drive.


Regardless, the failure experienced by the BRZ is a result of an oversight in the factory tune, not the driving habits. I'm sure Subaru would have cited a mechanical overrev or point to a heavily worn clutch if abuse/misuse were the case, not just give a vague "no".

[Mikem53]

Time will tell.. I would expect a long useful service life out of this car, but I would also expect the need to replace things more often with this type of car.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I fully expect my S2000 to last just as long as a camry, and I can assure you I drive my S2k far harder than the FRS/BRZs I drive.


Regardless, the failure experienced by the BRZ is a result of an oversight in the factory tune, not the driving habits. I'm sure Subaru would have cited a mechanical overrev or point to a heavily worn clutch if abuse/misuse were the case, not just give a vague "no".

[Onealpha]

Lets see,

Option 1: Drive car hard, blow motor, void warranty for driving car hard. Maybe get new or rebuilt motor with voided warranty on motor or possibly have to spend $8k for new motor. Not to mention possible carfax hit on resale.

Option 2: Spend $1k for tune, void warranty, free to drive car hard.

CSG Mike, I understand why you are recommending a tune now.

[sierra]

According to the TSB all cars from Jan 21 this year have the patch they are using in S. Africa. Could a dealer copy the later ECU program and use it to update the earlier cars?

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by sierra

According to the TSB all cars from Jan 21 this year have the patch they are using in S. Africa. Could a dealer copy the later ECU program and use it to update the earlier cars?

As a new FR-S owner, and as somebody who has tried to read and absorb the hundreds of posts and comments on this issue in just a few days time, I'm still having some doubts about the S.A. TSB.

Doubts in the sense that I really wonder if that's the complete source of the problem. Reading through the two page document posted on-line, it would seem that the whole combination of: Shifting at or close to redline, in less than 0.6 of a second, bringing you into the next gear over 5,200 rpm at a point where the ECU doesn't retard the timing, overheating the seals on the DI, is an obvious answer.

But I really have to question:

(1) Why would Toyota do this in the first place. Does it not seem odd? What was the reasoning behind it? If anything, factory tunes tend to be over-coservative. I'm a bit out of my depth here, but why would you stop retarding the timing over 5,200 rpm? Think of the combination of bad gas, high temperatures, high compression and WOT at high RPM.

And (2), even though it's only been a few months, I really wonder why Toyota world wide hasn't applied the same patch. Is it truly because they are ignoring it? Or because they want to test it further, under controlled conditions, to make sure it's working properly? Or because it really doesn't fix the issue and only prolongs it? And there is perhaps a more serious design defect [EDIT] with the seals or perhaps the injectors themselves?

For this reason, and the uncertainty behind it, I would be very reluctant to apply a non-factory tune. (Of course I'm in a completely different situation compared to other people. I have a brand new car that still isn't broken in (<350 miles), thanks to this forum, I'm aware of the problem and will try to avoid driving in ways that are known to over-heat the seals, and by pure luck, I purchased an extended 6/125K factory warranty. Meaning, at least in principle, I should be covered for a long time.) Knowing that this could potentially be a larger issue down the road with more and more blown engines as people start to wrack up high(er) mileage at high RPM, I'd rather not take the risk and do anything that could possibly lead to the denial of a claim, six months or a year or two years later. I was down this dead-end road more than 10 years ago with my Audi A4 and it left a very sour taste in my mouth. And the FR-S is my daily driver so I'd rather not take any risks.

In the end, I'm in the same boat as everybody else--just adrift and hoping for answers. I would very much like to rev the heck out of this engine, repeatedly, without fear. It's part of the reason I bought the car.

[sierra]

Jjaisli,

Your car should have the patch, meaning the transitional tables have been modified from full advance and retarded. So you should be ok. You might ask the dealer to confirm that?
The transitional tables might be left empty and on full advance for the complete rev range but only cause detonation when the port injectors come back on line at 5,200rpm.
The full advance on pre Jan 21 cars is only on zero throttle[clutch down?] but the ECU gets caught out with fast changes when the throttle is stomped on again.

[jjaisli]

Originally Posted by sierra

Jjaisli,

Your car should have the patch, meaning the transitional tables have been modified from full advance and retarded. So you should be ok. You might ask the dealer to confirm that?
The transitional tables might be left empty and on full advance for the complete rev range but only cause detonation when the port injectors come back on line at 5,200rpm.
The full advance on pre Jan 21 cars is only on zero throttle[clutch down?] but the ECU gets caught out with fast changes when the throttle is stomped on again.

My car has a February 2013 build date, so that would make sense. But I was a bit confused by the document posted:

Countermeasure:
The engine ECU logic has been changed to retard ignition timing above 5200 rpm during acceleration.

But does this really refer to ALL GT86 models produced worldwide, or is referring specifically to cars under the jurisdiction of Toyota S.A.? I haven't actually seen anything official to confirm it one way or the other. But if Toyota HAS made this change for all production cars, and already back in January, why would they not have issued a TSB for all existing cars? Would it not be easier and more cost effective to issue a TSB/recall now, rather than replacing, potentially, hundreds of engines under warranty, a year or two down the road?

I'll give the dealer I purchased the car from a call on Monday. The service manager seemed to be pretty knowledge. He himself used to drive an FR-S and even had a Perrin short-shift kit installed.