twins vs last gen cayman?

[mrybczyn]

I'm not describing the common thing - i'm suggesting the smart thing.

[TommyW]

Next gen Cayman will have the GT3 motor slightly de tuned to 425 HP.

[ZDan]

I've been on the fence since the twinz came out, but now it's seriously getting time to replace the 250k+ S2000, and BRZ limited and Cayman are the only cars on my radar. Today I think I made great progress in narrowing my decision down...

I drove a BRZ and two '06 Cayman Ss today, and honestly found the BRZ to be more fun to drive. The Cayman Ss (Caymen?) obviously had way more power and quicker acceleration, but felt less engaging and were more remote feeling. BRZ felt lightweight and responsive, Caymen S felt heavier, slower-steering. BRZ is ~2800 lb., Cayman S ~3000 lb., but the BRZ felt like it was more like 500 lb. lighter.

I fully expected some sorta Porsche magic to overwhelm me when I checked out the Caymen, but it just didn't happen. Didn't expect any BRZ magic, but damn, it was there! Subaru felt more *alive* and engaging.

Hmmm...

[Deep Six]

Originally Posted by ZDan

I've been on the fence since the twinz came out, but now it's seriously getting time to replace the 250k+ S2000, and BRZ limited and Cayman are the only cars on my radar. Today I think I made great progress in narrowing my decision down...

I drove a BRZ and two '06 Cayman Ss today, and honestly found the BRZ to be more fun to drive. The Cayman Ss (Caymen?) obviously had way more power and quicker acceleration, but felt less engaging and were more remote feeling. BRZ felt lightweight and responsive, Caymen S felt heavier, slower-steering. BRZ is ~2800 lb., Cayman S ~3000 lb., but the BRZ felt like it was more like 500 lb. lighter.

I fully expected some sorta Porsche magic to overwhelm me when I checked out the Caymen, but it just didn't happen. Didn't expect any BRZ magic, but damn, it was there! Subaru felt more *alive* and engaging.

Hmmm...

Strongly suggest you consider keeping it simple if you choose a BRZ, want to make some modifications and you aren't on a lap time quest. Quality header(ACE) and tune really makes a dramatic difference. Also light weight wheels, battery and brakes make enough difference collectively to be felt. Mine was down to 2610 with full interior prior to the FI system.


Many days I wish I had stopped right there.

[TommyW]

Originally Posted by xmadror

A '08 cayman s has peaked my interest and I'm wondering if anyone has any advise on it in or about cayman in general.

?

great cars however pre '09 and you're still worrying about IMS failure. The percentage is low but still a factor nonetheless. The Cayman is a wonderful car just not as playful as an 86. I call mine a mini GT3. The rough ride, quick steering and not a bad exhaust note at 4K. Plus a LOT cheaper to maintain and repair and mod. Unless you plan on streetlight racing, the power is fine.

I was either going Cayman S or 86 last year and when the smoke cleared the 86 seemed like a better fit overall.

I've had several 911s including a Turbo so I'm no stranger to P cars.

[PuslarBrrrz]

Man you guys kinda deflated my whole Porsche halo car mindset. I always thought that a Cayman was the next obvious move after the 86 chassis where its just amazingly better and more fun or something.

[xmadror]

This is somewhat getting off topic but here is goes anyway:

Originally Posted by mrybczyn

So many things wrong financially here.

0. Only spend 3-6 months of your post-tax income on a car. If you make $50K/year, spend $10K on a car.

1. Buy with cash or bring your own third party inexpensive financing.

2. Only look at total out-the-door price. Do not consider monthly payment. If you need to think about the monthly payment, you're purchasing something way too expensive.

Cars are expensive, depreciate in value, and take a bunch of money for upkeep, maintenance, insurance, registration, and operating costs. Don't overspend.

You make good points that I'm well aware of.

A $30K car would be around 9-10 months (8-9 if I don't count the down payment I'd make) of my post tax income.
I'm mid 30s, single and no kids so I don't see it as that much of a stretch.

Originally Posted by Yardjass

That's because it is, especially if you're buying it with cash. For most people, a car is an investment in transportation. For a lot of us, they can be toys, hobbies, etc. I would argue that you shouldn't FINANCE more than that percent of your annual income for any car but by all means, as long as you can afford insurance and maintenance, go drop more than your salary on a car if you've managed to save that much up. People spend tons of money on a lot of other hobbies. Why not cars?

Exactly how I feel. While I don't feel the need to justify myself here I can say that I'm fine with financing what is a toy/hobby to me.
Cars are my only expensive hobby other then cars I'm into computers and I'm somewhat of an audiophile but I don't spend much on either of these anymore.

Originally Posted by mrybczyn

I'm not describing the common thing - i'm suggesting the smart thing.

It's definitely not a smart financial move no arguing here.
And while I want to keep the monthly payment "low" in case something comes up I also don't plan to drag it out for the whole term.

Originally Posted by TommyW

great cars however pre '09 and you're still worrying about IMS failure. The percentage is low but still a factor nonetheless. The Cayman is a wonderful car just not as playful as an 86. I call mine a mini GT3. The rough ride, quick steering and not a bad exhaust note at 4K. Plus a LOT cheaper to maintain and repair and mod. Unless you plan on streetlight racing, the power is fine.

I was either going Cayman S or 86 last year and when the smoke cleared the 86 seemed like a better fit overall.

I've had several 911s including a Turbo so I'm no stranger to P cars.

Cayman S would be nice but I've come to the conclusion that it's not gonna happen in the foreseeable future.
From what I've read the IMS failure was even more rare on '08-09 cayman s vs '07 and earlier but it is still a possibility and not something I'd want to deal with. Maybe in a few years when the '10 and up gets cheaper ...


I'm not gonna get that 335is either since I've had some time to research/think about it, too much money and potential issue with the turbos with a n54 engine.


I'm thinking about test driving a Audi S5 3.0T and BMW 235i to see if I like them but I may just end up keeping the brz and modding it to add some power.
I generally prefer to keep my car stock but it could be a good way to solve the "lack" of power which is the main reason I've started to look for something else after 4 years with a brz.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by PuslarBrrrz

Man you guys kinda deflated my whole Porsche halo car mindset. I always thought that a Cayman was the next obvious move after the 86 chassis where its just amazingly better and more fun or something.

Don't let this thread deflate you. I owned a 2009 Boxster S and it was an amazing car and certainly better than the Twins in every performance metric.

The Boxster/Cayman are more refined and heavier cars. That makes the driving experience feel a bit isolated in comparison, but in return you get a car that wears you out less over long drives.

[WolfpackS2k]

Originally Posted by TommyW

Next gen Cayman will have the GT3 motor slightly de tuned to 425 HP.

That is not quite correct. The next Cayman GT4 will feature a detuned GT3 motor. But that's not "next gen". It will be the current generation 982 platform (sold as 718). It will also be the final performance variant of the current generation. It will also be close to impossible to buy at MSRP and will likely cost over $100,000.

I took my Cayman to VIR 2 weekends ago and had a fantastic time. Recorded my data using Harry's Laptimer and things were a bit interesting when I compared that against data taken with my boosted BRZ (before I wrecked it on lap 13, whomp whomp).

Best Lap Cayman S: 2:30.79 @ 77.5 mph avg, Vmax 130.2 mph
Times by sector:
22.09
34.72
24.18
33.07
36.73

Best Lap BRZ: 2:36.01 @ 75.9 mph avg, Vmax 122.1 mph
Times by sector:
24.16
37.88
23.94
33.65
36.38

Sectors 3 & 4 times are interesting. Sector 3 features the climbing esses and the BRZ was slightly faster there. Sector 4's time is curious because it's almost entirely composed of the back straight, on which the Cayman was considerably faster, so why the difference of only half a second?

Vehicle weights were pretty close between the two, as in my BRZ I had a 225 lb instructor riding shotgun and in the Cayman I was riding solo. The BRZ was on stock tires and stock suspension but car was still only 9 months old so quite tight. BRZ also only had 12 laps total around the circuit. The Cayman got more than 50 laps around VIR, but it's 96,000 mile old suspension is starting to show it's age. Above 95 mph the climbing esses were just too spooky for me (PSM light flickered occasionally as well). And on the front straight I wouldn't accelerate much past 120 mph as the slight dip in the road past the mild turn upset the suspension too much. In both scenarios the car was a bit floaty and NOT confidence inspiring at all.

In both cars I was braking early, as I suck at heel-toe shifting and am trying to work on it. So that's not really a factor in this equation. What conclusion can we take from this? That I need to replace Porsche suspension components, sigh...

[Deep Six]

Brave soul running a boosted BRZ with stock tires!!!!

My street tires are 245 PSS and they break lose completely at 6500rpm in 2nd gear.

[switchlanez]

Interesting thread! I just found and read through all of it and totally relate but with more interest in the 981. Here's a facebook status I posted yesterday with some of my comments merged in:

After months of pondering, I finally test drove the 981 Cayman and Cayman S (ignore the 718 I'm parked next to in pic) to see if I'd like either more than my BRZ enough to sell it. Conclusion: Inconclusive �� and base model was more enjoyable than S on the street.



Why? Base model just felt like a smaller car (same dimensions as S but lighter) and more visceral with very slightly more communicative feedback. Both had the sport seats that hug your body and base had an optional sport steering wheel (smaller diameter) but I doubt that was the difference. S felt floatier (felt like +150-200 lbs of optional/std eq't). When I opened throttle on the S enough to hear the motor/exhaust sweet spot, I was already going too fast for public roads. With the base model I heard the sweet motor/exhaust more often. S felt overkill for the street (like I could only experience <50% of its potential before breaking the law) but probably perfect for the track.

My main disappointments with the 981 Cayman and Cayman S:

1) Drove them aggressively through some esses and they handled great with road feedback albeit "filtered" through its semi-luxurious, heavier chassis vs. my BRZ (only added TRD springs/sways + Bilstein shocks + wheels/tires) communicates raw information more directly to its driver. BRZ's center of gravity is supposedly lower than the Cayman's and my hip really feels it sits below the center of mass. That sensation is vague in the Cayman, worse in the Cayman S. The old school hydraulic steering found in the 987 Cayman might be a Hail Mary to help with viscerality.

2) The Caymans have to build N/A power through revs. My BRZ's positive-displacement supercharger spoils me with instant torque. It's probably faster than the base Cayman and slower than the S but the BRZ's sensation of speed is greater because of that instant torque coupled with being a few hundred pounds lighter and amplified by greater road-to-driver feedback... sensory overload. The 718 Cayman's turbo fixes power delivery but maybe not item 1.

The Caymans I drove were PDK (all they had in stock, downshifts are awesome) so maybe I'm missing out not trying stick but I don't expect much. Against a stock BRZ, Cayman could arguably win. My BRZ with simple suspension and forced induction mods may not win in track times or luxury but does in driver enjoyment (so far).

[WolfpackS2k]

^A lot of people say the steering feel of a 981 is great. But it's nothing compared to a 987. Night and day if you drive them back to back. And 987.2's have the same engines as 981.1's. Best of both worlds IMO (though I personally own a 987.1). The weight difference between an equally appointed Cayman and Cayman S is less than 100 lb so I'm surprised you can tell a difference.

Originally Posted by Deep Six

Brave soul running a boosted BRZ with stock tires!!!!

My street tires are 245 PSS and they break lose completely at 6500rpm in 2nd gear.

Yeah, well as you can see in my signature, that didn't work out so well

[switchlanez]

Originally Posted by WolfpackS2k

^A lot of people say the steering feel of a 981 is great. But it's nothing compared to a 987. Night and day if you drive them back to back. And 987.2's have the same engines as 981.1's. Best of both worlds IMO (though I personally own a 987.1). The weight difference between an equally appointed Cayman and Cayman S is less than 100 lb so I'm surprised you can tell a difference.

I'll have to drive a 987.2 next. I've seen video reviews saying it felt more raw than the 981.

I drove the S first then went into the base model expecting less but was pleasantly surprised with how it felt a touch more engaging. They had the same array buttons below the shifter, not sure what other options made a difference:

S sales post
Base sales post

[WolfpackS2k]

I couldn't get the Cayman S photos to load.

Options that come to mind that would increase vehicle weight: Active rear differential (has an electric motor; think it adds 50lb), PASM (active suspension), upgraded power seats...

beats me.